Elaine Chao Visits the Valley (in National News) Beware Rogue Immigration Consultants! (in Bay Area News) Aftermath of the Spy Plane Standoff (in Business) San Francisco International Film Fest (in A&E) Emil Amok: The Puckheads Think They're Funny (in Opinion)

Los Alamos Director Talks Back

John Browne

Q&A with John Browne, Director of the Los Alamos National Labs

By Neela Banerjee

In the past two years, the Los Alamos National Laboratories in New Mexico have become synonymous with issues of racial profiling and workplace inequity, particularly for Asian Americans.

Former Los Alamos scientist Dr. Wen Ho Lee stood at the center of the controversy. Lee was arrested on 59 counts of breaching lab security, and while he spent time in prison, rumors of China espionage spread during an all-out media frenzy. Lee’s case also brought to light the concerns of Asian American laboratory employees who claimed that they were facing discrimination in the workplace. An Asian American boycott of the national labs caused a significant drop in the numbers of API applicants and workers at Los Alamos.

In an exclusive AsianWeek interview, Los Alamos Laboratory Director John Browne talks about Wen Ho Lee, what it feels like to be in the hot seat, and how Los Alamos is working to welcome back Asian Americans.

ASIANWEEK: When you became director of Los Alamos in 1997, were you aware of the investigation going on concerning national security?

John Browne: No, I wasn’t, actually. That whole investigation was going on several years before that, and I was informed just several weeks before becoming director. It was presented to me as an investigation. There were concerns about the loss of information to China that have been extensively reported about. It wasn’t clear to me in the discussions I had that there was a problem. I mean, there were concerns but there was no smoking gun, so to speak. The investigation was being done by the FBI and we cooperated because that’s what we had to do. But it was a complicated situation because I had to learn to deal with the amount of information they were willing to share with us that would allow us to run our organization. I feel that we got burned a little by that – where they didn’t necessarily share all the information that allowed us to run things smoothly.

AW: What can you say about the accusations that were made about racial profiling in the case of Dr. Wen Ho Lee?

JB: We did fire Wen Ho Lee. We fired him for security reasons. We didn’t have anything to say about espionage because we are not in that game; we don’t have that kind of information. But the data we did have on the violations that he did were very, very serious. More serious than violations I saw other people do who were fired. People would say to me ‘Don’t you feel bad for what happened to Wen Ho Lee?’ And what I say to that is I don’t feel bad for firing him, but what happened to him from the federal government is different because we weren’t involved in that. We couldn’t impact that.

It has been challenging, to be honest with you. A lot of the actions of the federal government have been cast onto us. You know, racial profiling and whatnot. We were frustrated by that because the implication was that the laboratories were doing racial profiling. I have been very vocal on that subject. We did not and will not do racial profiling on issues at our laboratory. In the case of Wen Ho Lee, the issue of racial profiling came about due to the espionage investigation and not the security violations. We looked at the data we had, not anything else. The other people who were terminated from the laboratory for security violations at the same time were not Chinese but the implication in the newspapers was that it was us doing the profiling. If it was done, it was done in Washington. Even some of the statements and rumors published in the press — for example there was a story that reported someone saying that the reason there were so many Chinese restaurants in Los Alamos was because there was a spy ring — that was outrageous. That didn’t come from a Los Alamos employee. It was a federal government employee who said these things.

AW: The Wen Ho Lee case did bring up the inequity that Asian Pacific Americans faced in the National Laboratories — in terms of unequal pay and management positions. Were you aware of these issues?

JB: These were never issues that the Asian American community brought forward as a strong concern that they had. One thing that came out of all this that I do think is positive, is that our communications and dialogue with the Asian American community is much better. It has become open and constructive. I asked the community to put together a task force to recommend to me what to do about career enhancement. One of the issues is that if you don’t have Asians in management positions, why don’t you have them in these positions? Some of the reasons why the Asian employees weren’t moving into management is because there were some barriers that we were not aware of, that they were not even aware of. They were subtle things. It wasn’t bias. A lot of our Asian scientists and engineers are really good. We get really good people. The feeling was that maybe they don’t want to go into management. And the culture a lot of time doesn’t push them to say “Consider me for management.” And they told me this. They said, “Look, we were raised differently, we don’t sometimes push ourselves.” We have decided to put in place management training for Asian Americans, mentoring programs. I think these things are positive.

With the salary issue, there was a difference of opinion whether this was the real case or not. We brought in an independent firm to work with the Asian community and our human resource department and come back with the analysis. Their analysis was that there was no major difference. So, that is something we want to pay attention to, but what we really want to pay attention to is the career development of the community. Because if we develop careers, then the salaries will really follow.

We have also been trying to put Asian Americans on steering committees for the laboratory, so they can identify other people out in the community who they think should apply for positions.

AW: How did you deal with the boycott targeting national laboratories that was called last year?

JB: A recommendation that was made to me was very interesting. The chancellor of U.C. Santa Barbara, Henry Yang, who is an old friend of mine, gave me some advice in the heat of this whole post-Wen Ho Lee/national laboratory boycott thing. Chancellor Yang said, “John, fix any problems you have at home. If the people at home are happy, they will tell other people to come. You have to focus first on the employees at home.” And that is what we are doing. We want to make them understand that they are valued, and that we want more Asian employees to come and work here.

We have a different problem than some of the labs in the Bay Area because we are isolated. Northern New Mexico is not an average place to go. But we have seen consistent growth in our Asian American numbers in the past 10 to 15 years, and that is what I would like to see continue. Because I think the bigger the community gets, the easier it is for others to come. That is what we are going to focus on.

The other thing is to really get out to campuses and talk to students and help recruit, and get to them before they have made up their minds to work for Intel or somebody, and come and maybe spend a summer with the Lab. The drop-off we saw, we are already starting to see a turnaround. I’m pleased that it hasn’t continued to fall. We were really worried that the Asian community of students and graduate students was going to say that we are not going to go there. That is why the boycott worried me. I understood the call for it, but I thought it was going to hurt the wrong people. I thought it would hurt the people who were looking for careers in national laboratories.

AW: Was there an open dialogue during the boycott?

JB: Yes, there was a lot of talk and I even went out to meet with some of the professional societies like ACES – Association of Chinese American Engineers and Scientists. And I was on a panel for an afternoon at one of their meetings about the aftermath of the Wen Ho Lee case, and it was, I would say, it was a tough audience. They asked tough questions. But it was a good meeting because they were very frank and they were very open. I felt that at the end of it people were very appreciative that we had gone out there. We have also been trying to do more of that. Daphne Kwok of the OCA came out recently and we had a really good talk about what we should do. She suggested that we have continued visibility at meetings and with students.

We think it is critical for us to have a good relationship with the Asian American community. I mean, just look at the demographics – things are changing. Our laboratory, this year for the first time, is now 51 percent minorities and women. That is the first time that white males are no longer the majority. That is the trend, and we have to do better so we can attract the demographics of the universities. We have to match that.

AW: How do you train scientists in matters of national security? Also, what do you think can be done about the stereotype of Asians, especially Chinese, as spies?

JB: What we have found is that the people who come out of universities, like I did and everybody else did, don’t have security backgrounds. It is only certain research programs that are classified. Not everyone has to work under security or have clearance. When you get a security clearance, this does put certain responsibility on you, independent of your background. You are trained about how to handle materials carefully. What people don’t realize is that this responsibility is independent of your background. What you are saying is that as a U.S. citizen, you are going to take care of your background. There were some concerns that naturalized citizens may not be as trustworthy as “real” U.S. citizens. Now, I don’t know if you know the history of our lab, but it was totally founded by immigrants to this country during World War II. Almost everybody was an immigrant.

My mother immigrated from Hungary in her teens and was treated severely because of her religion. Most of us don’t ever think about this kind of thing, but it is out there. I remember having a conversation with one of our young Asian American women scientists after the Wen Ho Lee case. She said, “I know that I do my work according to the security rules. I know I do. But, you know, I am afraid people are going to look at me differently because I am Asian.” I tried to reassure her that that is not true, but she said it is an issue for her that she can’t get away from. And she was right about that, so when we had some of our discussions on diversity, we talked about that issue. That there is a real history in this country of this suspicion and what it can do, like what happened during World War II with the Japanese American community. I think that is an important issue for all of us to try to understand and work through.

I have something I call our “six zeros policy.” And what it says is that, as a laboratory, we will strive to have zero safety accidents, zero negative impact on the environment through our work, zero health incidents and zero mistreatment of people. People say that is impossible because you will never get to zero. I say, what number is OK? How many people mistreatment incidents are OK? People are starting to buy into that in their smaller work groups. They say in their group of 20 they can have zero. I think it is the job of management to set the culture.

AW: What kinds of lessons can be learned from the Dr. Wen Ho Lee case and its aftermath?

JB: I think there are some really important lessons to be learned. In a diverse society like we have, that is really going to continue to become more and more diverse, you really have to know how to communicate. You really have to have an open dialogue. You can’t assume anything because people with different backgrounds think differently about different issues.

I think another thing is that this issue of racial profiling is a serious issue for this country. Wen Ho Lee, whether it happened to him by certain individuals in the government or not, it is certainly a problem for other communities. I think our country really needs to think about this as we become more diverse. It’s not going to be obvious. You can’t assume things about people by how they look, how they are dressed and what kind of car they drive. You have to base it on a fairer evaluation of what people actually do. Also, with controversy like this, you have to get outside of your institution and start a dialogue. You have to go to communities or places where you might not be very popular and make sure changes happen.