Chinese Women Gymnasts Win Gold - Age in Question

By: pswing, Aug 15, 2008

Tags: 2008 Beijing Olympics, National, News |

Yet another controversy surrounds the 2008 Beijing Olympics. Following the offensive photos taken by Spanish Olympians, the legitimacy of the gold medal won by China’s women’s gymnastics team is in question based on their age.

Former standout Olympian gymnast Dominique Dawes says “Gymnasts tend to look young,” during her interview with Yahoo!. “If you were to see the American team in street clothes, they don’t look like they’re 18 or 19 year old athletes.” And though the USA women’s gymnastics team have publicly stated that they have nobody to blame but themselves, Americans from all over the nation have called in expressing their negative sentiments on the issue. “I was shocked when I saw the Chinese girls with the medals around their necks hanging down to their pelvis bone,” said one caller to CNN. “They need to check it out because I think they’re cheating.”

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Chinese Gymnasts Age Update: IOC Begins Investigation on He Kexin
Former US Coach’s “Half-People” Remark- New Evidence On Age
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AsianWeek would like to create a healthy platform for multicultural discourse on issues that affect our community. As an integral part of the Asian American community, we would like to know how you feel about this controversy. Are those attacking the legitimacy of the Chinese women’s gymnastics team just sore losers? Can this controversy be interpreted in such a way that Asians will always be questioned about their successes? Making this a racist issue? In the worst case scenario (that the gymnasts were younger than 16), doesn’t that make their feat just that more extraordinary? Should they be investigated?

Please make respectable comments in accordance with our policy stated below.

Thank you.

Comments

The issue was first raised in articles earlier this month when the New York Times and the Associated Press found official registration lists on the General Administration of Sport of China’s website showing Yang Yilin born on on August 26, 1993 for the years of 2004, 2005, and 2006. He Kexin’s birthday was listed as Jan. 1, 1994 on the registration lists for 2005, 2006, and 2007. The list goes on. Combine this with numerous official Chinese news reports confirming the above information from as recent as May of this year and you have a significant case for speculation. Here is just one of the articles.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/04/sports/olyage.php

–DC on Aug 14, 2008
>In the worst case scenario (that the gymnasts were younger than 16), doesn’t that make their feat just that more extraordinary?

Sounds like either actual or willful ignorance there. Why do you suppose the age limit was instituted in the first place? Because pre-pubescent performers have well known advantages, and that is no big secret.

There it is, a motive to break the rules. The most disgusting part is that it is done by the host country, at an institutional level, and the IOC looks the other way.

Making this a racist issue? The issue is about cheating, but palming the race card as a ready deflection for honest inquiry will make it all very racial when mono-racial government’s support of cheating becomes expected and goes unpunished.

–Sal Bergeron on Aug 14, 2008
Sports have rules and you are supposed to follow them, even when they don’t seem to make much sense. Within the last several years European Nordic skiers and cyclists have been tossed for doping. Marion Jones is in prison for failing to tell the truth about doping, sprinters have been banned for long enough to effectively end their careers. I don’t care who it is, you break the rules, you should get tossed. In women’s gymnastics it is not extraordinary for girls to perform well. Had they been in their late 20s, that would be extraordinary. (I’ve coached youth soccer; I could take a team of average high school girls and beat any Olympic team if my team gets to break any one rule of my choice for the entire game but the opposition has to follow the laws of the game.)

–Blair Orr on Aug 14, 2008
I think if you take a good, hard look at the photos of the Chinese women’s gymnastic teams, you can clearly see that at least three of the girls are under age.

On the question you ask about it being more extraordinary for these girls to win over the older U.S. girls (if the Chinese girls are underage), no it would not. Younger bodies are more flexible. Teenagers, 16 and up, generally have curves and more height to deal with, making gymnastics more difficult as they get up in age.

The whole reason why the 16 and over rule was put into place was to stop countries from using and abusing younger girls into spending too much time in grueling practices, most likely against their will. If these girls are under age (which I strongly believe), what does that say about China? How many extra hours have they had to practice to appease China’s hunger for gold?

–Aria on Aug 14, 2008
You know, this problem could be easily solved by dumping the (somewhat ambiguous and easy to cheat around) age limit, and instead, enforcing some weight restrictions.

With that said, China’s girls (er, women) took the gold–woo! However, life goes on, and I don’t think we need to give the world any more reason to think of Americans as a bunch of whiny and sore bumbags.

–Belinda on Aug 14, 2008
Well, the American girls Nancy and Shawn got their vengeance playing fair and square.

Yes, this issue must be investigated and China forfeit the team gold if they violated the rule.

–Korean-American Dude on Aug 14, 2008
>(I’ve coached youth soccer; I could take a team of average high school girls and beat any Olympic team if my team gets to break any one rule of my choice for the entire game but the opposition has to follow the laws of the game.)

I found this statement a little ignorant and a little ridiculous. I don’t know if you was meant to use it as a literary tool in attempt to prove your point because there isn’t much truth to it if taken in a literal sense. But anyway if so, I apologize.

–Ray on Aug 15, 2008
This is a non-issue. Regardless of whether they are underage or not there is no way anybody would be able to refute the paper work (i.e. their passports) provided by the Chinese, or any other country for that matter. If it was possible, it would have already happened.

As a 22 year old Chinese-American though, I can tell you that I look a lot younger than I am and can definitely pass for an 18 year old. Every now and then I’ll get IDed when buying blunts. I’m not saying they are or aren’t underage, but keep in mind that asians generally look younger than other ethnicities of the same age.

I did notice on the NBC coverage that every shot showing the Chinese gymnasts were shot from high angle views. When I watched on TV, I was thinking “these girls are like 2 feet tall, there’s no way they are over 16.” But after seeing some of the other footage and photos, the girls actually aren’t that short compared to the other gymnasts.

But really, I think regardless of any information that comes up, people are already going to believe what they want to believe without having to really be familiar with the subject at hand. It’s pretty rare nowadays that a person really changes their mind on an issue like this based on new developments and information. I personally think at least one of them is probably underage. But I also have an inkling that the Chinese aren’t the only country that’s guilty of bending eligibility rules like this (not pertaining exclusively to age limits) for the current as well as past olympic games, especially in the sport of gymnastics.

–Will on Aug 15, 2008
Disgusted on most of the comments left on US websites regarding this issue. Judging someone based on their physical appearance, calling them underage because they don’t fit what you expect to see. Shawn Johnson has similar if not the same height and weight as the other girls and yet no one questions that. Why? because she “looks” old. Hey Americans… SUCK IT UP and leave China alone.

–gman on Aug 15, 2008
I don’t know if removing the age limit or enforcing minimum weight requirements is the solution. Each person carries their weight in different places, each body is built differently, so one should not be penalized for not meeting a set weight limit. A person can eat and exercise healthy but still be slender because of genetics or just how their body is.

As for the age rules right now, I don’t believe it is really effective because I assume if a young girl is so determine to make the Olympics, he or she would be training as a child — just as vigorously as if there were no minimum age restriction.

Regardless, the rules are what they are at the moment. I agree with the previous comments that it is not “more extraordinary” that the China team won if they WERE younger than 16. If China could bend the rules, then other countries should’ve been able to gain that advantage as well.

–Jojo on Aug 15, 2008
Ahhh, it is but once every 4 yrs that the entire world put aside their guns and come together to make racist remarks on eachother….Why is there even an age limit for these events? Why is the age limit different in the various events? Ex. diving/swiming (which shouldn’t be a sport), a 14yrs old can participate. And just because the US have a different view on how an athlete trains him/herself than the rest of the world’s view, not every organization should follow it. Maybe Hollywood should stop working with Jackie Chan and Jet Li because they started training martial arts very young…it’s a good thing money makes all the rules…

Cheating in the Olympics is normal. One could argue that the US using former communist coaches on their team is not patriotic. And becasue they are well paid (US gymnist coaches) they now sudden whine about method of training. Deep inside, thy’ve done it, and would do it again if they weren’t in the US. So let’s give the US a couple golds so they can stop b****ing…. and speaking of unfair, what about all these new events that we all know NOT every nations will be able to participate except the US and few big countries…..bmx…please it’s not a sport…but it seems like if big countries want more medals, they just create a new “sports”. Now that’s a disgrace for true athletes. Every big countries that don’t win they whine til the end…

peace out dude

–Foomanchoo on Aug 15, 2008
Let’s face it. If the girls are under 16 they should be disqualified. They knew the age limit and they broke the rules. Wait 4 more years and compete then. If the US did this I would say that they should be disqualified as well. Anyone who says that people complaining about this issue are just whining then you are ignorant. Rules are put in place for a reason. If we start breaking them and getting away with it then what message does that portray?
Cheating is Cheating, I don’t care who won silver and bronze.

–Tiffany on Aug 15, 2008
Hi,
My wife was born in China and she tells me that it is the cultural norm for parents to count the year a child is born as 1 year and then the babys first day as a year. So, if a baby is 2 days old they would call her 2 years old. Then the age counting continues normally. So they would normally say a girl was 16 when she is actually 14 in real time. This is a cultural fact. So it could be that this is what was done. It may be considered to be not cheating at all. A cultural difference is all.

–Greg on Aug 15, 2008
Hi again,
We have been discussing this further and this is due to the old Chinese custom and it is based on the Lunar calendar. For example:if the baby was born on August 8th, 1994 the baby would be considered to be 1 year old til the end of the year and then on jan 1, 1995, the child would be 2 years old. So you could have a time difference of almost 2 years if the baby was born on the last day of the year.

–Greg on Aug 15, 2008
Reminds me of the CPS authorities who believed the YFZ ranch polygamists were always liars, so they lined up the girls and looked at them to determine who was under 18 or not, even if they had drivers licence and / or birth certificate. There were two dozen women who were illegally detained, one was actually over 30. CPS was wrong on EVERY count (as they were on basically every other decision they made, but refused to admit). The chinese case might be the same (or they might be lying, but paperwork is paperwork)

–awarthurhu on Aug 15, 2008
“Are those attacking the legitimacy of the Chinese women’s gymnastics team just sore losers? Can this controversy be interpreted in such a way that Asians will always be questioned about their successes? Making this a racist issue?” Playing the race card is very convenient, especially when you’d rather not confront the brutal realities of this Olympic Games (i.e., that the Olympic Committee had essentially been bought by the Chinese Communist Party and refuses to even investigate the actual ages of the athletes, that untold thousands of Beijing residents were brutally evicted from their homes without compensation to make way for the incredibly ugly Bird’s Nest stadium and other sites, etc., etc.). Believe or not, the controversy swirling around this issue is legitimate - if the athletes were indeed under the age of 16, they should be disqualified. Period.
Stop always ascribing everything to anti-Asian racism; it violates the standards of journalistic objectivity to which you’re ostensibly beholden. And it’s ironic that you’re so quick to cry “racism” when many Asian Americans and Asians in general harbor deeply racist prejudices against other peoples of color, esp. Africans and African Americans, completely invalidating such claims.

–Christian on Aug 15, 2008
In the ancient games, when someone was caught cheating, they were fined (so many drakhma back then) and the money was used to erect a statue of the cheater in a prominent place at Olympia as a warning to others - sort of an ancient Olympic’s “Hall of Shame”. And many in the modern world think the ancients have nothing to teach us……

Future ages shall wonder at us as the present does now. - Perikles’ Funeral Oration (431/0 BC)

And, yes….Perikles is spelled with a “k” (kappa).

–Jeff on Aug 15, 2008
Greg - you wrote “My wife was born in China and she tells me that it is the cultural norm for parents to count the year a child is born as 1 year and then the babys first day as a year. So, if a baby is 2 days old they would call her 2 years old.”
No matter what they “call” it, the actual birth date is what is listed on passports and other official documents. Or do they culturally change the actual date too?
Let’s remember, this is the “womens” gymnastics event, not childrens.

–Marta on Aug 15, 2008
I feel that the discussions indicating that there is some sort of racist issue or “poor loser” issue are missing the point entirely. It appears without question - both visually and factually (prior registrations..etc) that the Chinese women’s gymnastics team is not made up of Chinese “women” but girls under the age of 16.

The whole spirit of the Olympics is athlete’s from all over the world joining together to compete in a fair and safe manner. Any breaking of the clearly stated rules (age, doping, gender, etc) goes 100% against the whole point of the Olympics.

I pity the Chinese people for having a goverment that would falsify passports and would place winning above honestly. My heart breaks for those amazing young gymnists who are having to lie about their ages. They will never be able to view their medals with the true pride that an Olympic athelete should be able to because they know they broke the rules.

The fact that this problem was not resolved well before the competition - when everyone expected the USA to win and sourgrapes would not have been a part of the equation…tells us much about the inability or unwillingness of the IOC and other governing bodies to offend the Chinese Goverment prior or during the games.

It is my hope that after the games close that real and meaningful steps will be taken to penalize the Chinese for their obvious deceipt and to insure that all rules are followed in the future.

–Mary on Aug 15, 2008
When people attack the Chinese government, that’s one issue. When they start making generic statements, such as “Chinese are cheaters”, then you include the general Chinese public and are simply being racist.

I, for one, believe Americans need something to whine about. And yes, it’s “whining” indeed. Why? Because they complain about an “injustice” that has not proven to be true. Publications have made mistakes. I also wouldn’t be surprised if their “facts” were merely fabricated to boost sales/ratings. You shouldn’t believe everything you read in the paper.

Lastly, any comment on how the gymnasts “look” underage is usually from another ignorant westerner who has never left North America. Asian diet is completely different from westerners. Asians tend to eat more seafood and less red meat. Thus, Asians don’t end up looking like porkers compared to their North American counterparts.

–Ryan on Aug 15, 2008
Let’s drop the “whining”, racism, sour grapes complaints and look at the facts. If you cheat you should forfeit. Whethere it was the country, the team, or the girls themselves; cheating should be penalized not rewarded.

–Adan on Aug 15, 2008
Ryan why is it perfectly acceptable for you to make racist comments against Americans while proclaiming it “racist” for Americans and others to call into question the actions of China?

–Bella on Aug 15, 2008
Adan, I agree with you. If you cheat, you should forfeit and not be rewarded. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to prove that they cheated. These publications that claim they found evidence on Internet websites to support their “proof” really crack me up. The Internet is a great place to find cold, hard, reliable facts right? Give me a break. I say to check out the girls’ birth certificates.

I’m just disgusted that so many Americans jump to the conclusion and firmly believe that “the Chinese” (whatever that encapsulates) cheated. I’m not saying that they didn’t, but I’m also not saying that they did because I don’t know all of the facts. Innocent until proven guilty? Apparently not.

–Ryan on Aug 15, 2008
Bella, I never said it was perfectly acceptable for me to make racist comments against Americans. But now maybe you understand how Chinese people feel when they read some of the hateful comments from some Americans.

I have absolutely no problem with Americans calling into question the actions of China. I’m all for it. I’m only disgusted by those who have already concluded that these girls are underage even though there is no hard evidence to prove it.

–Ryan on Aug 15, 2008
The complaints about “whiners” and “racists” are absurd. They make no attempt to refute the evidence. In fact, there are multiple news reports demonstrating without question that the government of China cheated and when it was caught cheating it lied about it and took down various websites and prior news-posts to cover up the fact that they cheated.

The IOC should demonstrate some courage and protect the integrity of the Olympic games by beginning an immediate investigation and a full and fair hearing on the matter. Individual athletes cheat from time to time, and, if they are caught, they are banned from future events. If it is proven that the Chinese Womens’ Gymnastics team was under age AND the Chinese government directed the deception and the cover-up, then China should simply be banned from the 2012 Olympics.

That’s not whining or racism; that’s fairness and justice.

–Mazer Rackem on Aug 15, 2008
Foomanchoo <- has the IQ of igneous rock

re Arthur Hu-falsified paperwork is falsified paperwork

–Sal Bergeron on Aug 15, 2008
If they are not of age, they should not be participating and they should be stripped of their medals. Harsh, maybe, but if we are going to play by the rules, it should be done. If the IOC does not enforce the minimum age, why should they be able to enforce other rules against cheating in the Olympics? How is entering under-age athletes any more noble than doping? It’s not. Enough with the deceit in the Games; let’s bring back some legitimacy. Give the medals to the real champions. If the girls are of-age, then they can keep them. If they are not, they can wait until the next Olympics and follow the rules like the other countries.

–Katie on Aug 15, 2008
Mazer, you’re right in that the complaints about “whiners” and “racists” make no attempt to refute the “evidence” (which I put in quotes because evidence from the Internet is a joke). However, it’s not completely an absurd topic. Let’s face it. If team USA won the gold, Americans wouldn’t care whether or not the Chinese gymnasts were underage. Americans would just congratulate themselves, pat themselves on the back and be on their way. Notice that this is really only a big issue with Americans. You don’t see too many posts from others outside of the US. Hence, the “whiners” and “sour grapes”.

–Ryan on Aug 15, 2008
Let’s not jump into conclusions until all the facts are examined. Greg has a point about the Chinese using the lunar calendar and counting the age years. Having said this, I have to ask how did China calculate their gymnasts’ ages in the past? The answer to this question will give a clearer picture of China’s decision to use these gymnasts. Also, what is the definition of a woman? The on-set of her menstural cycle? Her maturity level?What? To me, even if they are age appropriate, they are still girls. And as Asians, we all know we look younger than our chronological age. However, we as Asians also know all too well about the Asian Parent Syndrome. So, let’s just calm down and solve this problem without adding racism into the mix. Because after all that is said and done, we, as Asians, will have to live with the results.

–Linda on Aug 15, 2008
I personally believe that if the Chinese girls who are under 16 decide they want to compete in the Olympics and win, there shouldn’t be a problem. If the young Chinese girls don’t come close to placing, than they are a waste of our time, but for them to win gold is extraordinary.

–Mike on Aug 15, 2008
I agree with Ryan, if the US had won gold, there probably won’t be any comments from their camp. Someone here has talked about their diet. I’m asian and yes I do eat rice 365 days out of the year. I don’t really eat out because I don’t have the money. I tend to stay away from red meat because I don’t really like the taste and texture of it. We do eat a lot of white meat, like chicken and fish. We also have our assortment of vegetables. Sometimes an old fashion vegetable stir-fry with a bowl of rice is heaven. The simple things are always the best. But, point is, because of the things I eat and don’t eat reflect on my physical features. I still get carded when I buy beer and I’m twenty-six.

–G on Aug 15, 2008
Also, I would like to add that these girls are physically gifted to win the gold at such a young age. Everyone should accept it, just like everyone should accept the profoundly gifted child who skipped high school to attend college.

–Linda on Aug 15, 2008
the congenital liars here (Ryan especially) won’t be interested in this:

http://www.hb.xinhuanet.com/zhuanti/2007-11/03/content_11575563.htm

paste that link in Google search and look at the cached version, because the original was pulled by skulking cowards

–Sal Bergeron on Aug 15, 2008
anyone who says that americans would not have complained if they won team gold, WRONG….There have been complaints before the competition even began. They ARE underage and should be disqualified. I am chinese american and cannot believe the chinese government is so arrgoant to think they can control everyone. Not everyone is under their manipulation and power. They are doing all these things (like fake singer, fake fireworks, evicting people, and cheating gymnasts) to put this pefect face forward, HELLO what kind of face is cheating putting forward china??? The truth has way of coming out, several national sources listed their birthdaates younger as well as interviews. They are also missing teeth, and look like children in their faces. Even when one of them fell off the bar you could see how inexperiences she was it was weird (in her face, like no sadness no experience behind those eyes). I hope the truth will come out, it is the government.

–kaio on Aug 15, 2008
I found judging people’s age by their appearances and gave the comments like “half-people” very insulting. So what a asian girl doesn’t have the boobs the white chick does at 16. So what the girls has much younger looking skin than the white chick does. So what these girls are always under weight monitoring which could delay their developments. This whole flare-up on NBC has gained such a racist tone. It is worth proteting

–T on Aug 15, 2008
People here should know the authoritarian athlete training system manipulates girls’ entire lives for the nation, not just their bodies, schedules and passports. If it happened here the coach would be in jail. Anyone supporting this child abuse is unAmerican, sad to say.

–Realistic on Aug 15, 2008
Cheating always makes a difference otherwise they wouldn’t cheat….I think all the sour grapes and whiner comments are out of line, because I don’t think anyone here can prove the are of age….If they were to x-ray their hands on live television , to ensure the results, it would clear everything up….but I don’t see anyone trying to prove they are 16 except in a means that is corrupt able. also North Korea was banned from the Olympics for falsifying age….same crime…. same punishment

–mmmmmmmmmmm on Aug 15, 2008
Sal, I’m quite surprised that you know me well enough to label me as a congenital liar. You are another great example of an ignorant American, listening to CNN and other media outlets like it’s the bible. Oh, hey, now I talk about you like I know everything about you (like the crystal-clear fact that you MUST be an American). Sound familiar? If you don’t talk trash about me, I won’t talk trash about you.

Yes, indeed Xin Hua had an article stating one of the gymnasts was 13 at the time. However, you’re under the assumption that Xin Hua is 100% correct on its facts and that the Internet is a reliable source of information. It’s certainly evidence against the validity of the gymnasts’ ages, but is definitely not proof. Otherwise, I’m sure they would have already been disqualified and we wouldn’t be here talking about it.

As for Kaio, wow, I don’t even know where to begin. “They ARE underage” right? You must be related to them then or have insider information to make such a bold claim. In all seriousness, I’m quite disappointed in what living in North America has done to you (from what I observe). It sounds like you’re not even familiar with typical Chinese because if you were, you’d know not to judge age by appearance. I’m Chinese Canadian. Perhaps you should visit Canada as we’re more multi-cultural over here. You can see a variety of cultures here and it should give you a better perception of the Chinese people.

–Ryan on Aug 15, 2008
The chinese gymnastics team has always looked like “little girls” to the world. Its obvious asians do age less than others. I’m half korean and I’m turning 30 this year but I am always carded, and tellers are shocked when they see my birthdate of 1979,
And yes, if the US had won the gold, this might not be as big of an issue.

But really, if the girls are of age, they should have no problem proving it, however asked to to do so, rather than just be quiet and “ignore” what people are saying. I think they’d be REALLY quick to prove it considering how much they care about their perfect image…all of sudden now they are just better than gossip?

–kim on Aug 16, 2008
this is just getting silly. they’re ASIAN AND GYMNASTS.. of course they look like kids! have you ever seen a gymnast who remotely looked their age? i have little doubt that these athletes are of age, but i think some have confused the issue a bit. they are both sixteen AND pre-pubescent. trying not to be crass, but when held to an extreme muscle-to-fat ratio, women’s bodies don’t mature and/or regress physically. couple that with the fact that asian teens tend often tend to look very young to caucasians and yeah, it appears to be a team of 9-yr-olds. it isn’t. get over it.

–maro on Aug 16, 2008
Kaio, are you sure you’re Chinese-American? Because I live in China, and the government sure as hell hasn’t controlled me. Oh, wait. I feel a leash around my neck.

Also, if you’re absolutely positive those girls aren’t 16, then how about I give you a random picture of someone, and you tell me how old they are? If you guess the right age, I’ll give you an M & M! I’m 16, and once when I went out with my cousin, someone thought I was 25. So maybe you should refrain from assuming things. Think of it as math–if they don’t give you the right angle sign, then you can’t assume it’s a right angle. Just a thought!

And Ryan, you’re hilarious.

–Lotionface on Aug 18, 2008
what does this remind us? that we are trying to get rid of the best,most suitable gymnasts,in order to let the older,less suitable ones have a chance at the medal.if the younget ones beat the older ones most of the time,this means only one thing.And it is that the younger ones are better than the older ones.Why restrict a gymnast by age?Why not then ban anyone under 18 to compete ?Because we know it would be rather poor and clumsy
gymnastics performance.The best thing would be to get rid of the age rule all together and let the better ones win!!

–martin on Aug 18, 2008
I want the best to win, I do not care if they hail from another Nation. (Thats why there are Olympics in the first place.) If their are rules about age it is generally accepted that one turn around the sun is a year, no exceptions everyone on the same page. I would like to thank Greg & his wife for the cultural info.

–American Joe on Aug 18, 2008
Well, I do think the age rule is kind of silly, but IF the Chinese gymnasts are underage, they should be disqualified. However, there is no PROOF of this thus far, so I congratulate the Chinese gymnasts in the meantime on their success. I’m just confused about how so many people already “know” that they’re underage.

I think this whole controversy stems from a “World vs China” kind of mentality. North American media always portrays the Chinese government as the “bad guy” and yet, I know a number of Chinese living there that don’t have a problem with them. I’m not trying to defend their government (because they definitely have been involved in some scandals). All I’m saying is that there’s always multiple sides to a story and we in North America are bound to only get one side from the media.

–Ryan on Aug 18, 2008
First, if we got our butts kicked by 12 year old (toddlers) then we didnt deserve to win in the first place. Personally, i thought the Chinese girl were better. And more, they showed a lot of class and grace. Any complaints by my fellow Americans is just whining at the very least, and outright racism at the most. America can never handle when somone of another color outdoes them. My hats off to the Chinese women’s team, they deserve every medal they (won.)

–an african american on Aug 19, 2008
When this is all over, I’m sure its going to be used in many jokes to come. Anyhow, don’t just look at the age problem. There were many stuff going on since the opening ceremony with lip synch performance because one child just didn’t look good enough or the fake fireworks. Yes anybody watching the competition did see some rather unusual high scores from some of the judges in favor of chinese women (girls) gymnastics team. However, I’m willing to look past all of that because in a couple of weeks when the Olympics are over no ones going to care. What I won’t overlook are the situation that are happening outside the games, like American protestors for a free Tibet being arrested. Even the cameraman who was just filming the protest was arrested. Be happy and proud that you the right to voice an opinion on whether you believe this country is cheating or not as oppose to be executive like they have done in China for speaking up and protesting.

–DJ Battles on Aug 19, 2008
I think whining from USA is very lame. Americans are such bunch of whiners when they lose it is not even funny anymore.

Does anyone remember in 2004 Olympics when American Paul Hamm won the Gold at men’s all around due to an error of judges? The gold should have belonged to South Korean gymnast who was ABSOLUTELY ROBBED because his starting score was 9.9 instead of 10. The judges made an error and gave the medal to Paul Hamm. Did American media say the gold should belong to Yang Tae Young of South Korea? They barely made few small mention of it and no one to this day even remember anymore. Yang Tae Young was screwed and the whole USA could careless as long as Paul Hamm got the gold.

The bitching on TV by Karoli is downright embarrassing. The NBC broadcast never mentioned this bias moron is husband of the USA team’s coach. Accusing Chinese athletes of cheating without proof on national TV is just downright embarrassing. Any homer in any sports can have an opinion and he is just a homer. I mean have anyone seen all the gymnasts? They are all short. Anyone can easily say the same about a ton of other gymnasts they are underage. I mean, why do we have an age limit in gymnastics anyway? At least Liuskin’s dad agreed they really should get rid of the age limit and just everyone compete. Instead of giving credit to the Chinese athletes who trained extremely hard and competed, most Americans simply tried to ignore their performance and go straight to the cheating card.

BTW, Chinese people or the athletes have nothing to do with these international judges.

Also, ignorance of many Americans is appalling. Living in America, I am well aware of constant stereotyping of Asian Americans and Asians. It is usually negative as all Asians are the same. Comments like “half people” etc. are just downright racist. Many comments labeling Chinese as commies etc. are merely reinforcing these racist attitude.

Unless you live in a cave, you must at least be smart enough to know Asian people come in all sizes and shapes. Some will look young and some look a little older. Chinese athletes range from tiny gymnasts to Yao Ming.

–RY on Aug 19, 2008
Listen when reading this I feel that many people are thinking we as Americans are complaining and upset, because we lost. That is not the point. The Chinese have broken the rules and their government has committed a felony by forging documents. There are many records that show the Chinese government have stated these girls birthdays make them not fourteen and now that they realize they are the best and they want them to compete in these games they are all the sudden 2 years older? If you look at the facts it is not fair.

Oh yeah and look at the actual girls competing in the olympics they are nothing by gracious. They are not complaining about the medals. They are just glad to be there. They are happy whether or not they won silver or gold (although they strive for gold). We are gracious, but it is just sad that China has to cheat to win. Is it really that important for them to be known as a power house where they have to cheat to win. Not only are the coaches cheating, but the government of China who are forging these birth certificates? This is just plain wrong. Don’t they have morals

–jfdklfjdskfajskd;l on Aug 19, 2008
To the above - how do you know they cheated? Where is your proof? Bunch of Internet sites? I can bring up bunch of Internet sites too. In fact, I can go make some right now that claim all the USA team are doping.

How about the Chinese gymnast who got Bronze in the high low bar? She did the best routine by far and did any American media gave her any credit when she was totally screwed on her score? Of course we don’t hear a peep of that out of those bias announcers.

Let’s face it, it is in our culture to win at any cost. Whether it is through drugs, steroids or whatever else is there. If we can’t win with those methods, we can always resort to calling other people cheaters.

–RY on Aug 19, 2008
The real reason why Americans are bitching loudly is because they can’t believe Chinese is kicking ass in the Olympics. It is something hard to swallow so they resort to bitching and whining. Even with the medal count, America list total medal count as the right measurement while just about all the rest of the world use # of gold medals for the standings.

Even the open lip sync was consulted with NBC prior. Of course, the media here made it sound like Chinese cheated.

What a bunch of crap we can journalists here. All the coverage always have some sort of racial tone to them and bias as hell.

How would America like it if all the Chinese at next American Olympics start do protests about “Free America” and tell people here to give the entire land back to the American Indians? To most Chinese, this isn’t much different than all the “Free Tibet” stuff that Western media loves to use to promote anti-China propaganda. Let’s face it, most people in America could careless about Tibet but merely using it to promote anti-China sentiments. In case most people don’t realize, most Chinese people in China love their country and they have no problem showing it at the Olympics. It is quite different than the typical stereotype that all Chinese are oppressed and they are doing it because the government told them to do so. I doubt the Chinese government told all these people everywhere in China to wear “I Love China” on their chests.

–RY on Aug 19, 2008
I’m pretty sure the US called one of the girls out with documentation proving she was underage. Really though I think RY is a troll and is making suppositions about the sources of other peoples information and therefor making himself a hypocrite to his own statement against jfdk.

–CJ on Aug 19, 2008
And people can just ignore the facts and say “Your making it up” because you can say that too.

Its called Ignorance and your pulling it off very well RY *clap*

BTW what happend to my last post did it get deleted?

But yeah I also kinda wonder why the same article I mentioned got pulled after NY times did there peice on it.

–Marinay on Aug 19, 2008
CJ - That’s not the point. The IOC is the one who determines whether these kids meet the requirement of the Olympics. Also, I don’t buy the notion that younger gymnasts automatically have an advantage. Last I checked, gymnastics is a very difficult sports and it takes years to train regardless of your age. Why have the age limit? It is stupid. Former gymnasts Liuskin’s dad and Sarah Miller both said they should get rid of the age limit.

How about bitching about Paul Hamm’s 2004 medal? I don’t see USA media run with that story on every news network when that happened. Talk about double standards. That was OUTRIGHT cheating and this is only accused cheating.

How about give the gymnasts their props because they performed exceptionally regardless of the age debate? Liuskin seems to be ok with it why do the media and sore losers here can’t let it be?

–RY on Aug 19, 2008
Nobody should make any assumption before all the facts are present. Everybody should chill out and stop sounding like a sour losers just because U.S. is losing to China. It almost sounds like Americans are making racist assumption just because they don’t like Communist China.

Anybody can look younger than they are, and accusing them without a proof just look downright immature.
Even more, the fact that NBC constantly suggests that Chinese team is cheating me off.

Even if they were to cheat, the rule itself was flawed to begin with. Olympic should be an event where all athlete should compete regardless of their age, , or race. The age limit almost seems to hinder the spirit of the Olympic that was supposed to unite the world. What I see is desperate Americans clinging to their pride and attempting the overlook the fact that Chinese in fact is a better nation in this Olympic.

–JL on Aug 19, 2008
Christian,

You’re a hypocrite! After what you keep posting in here and you complain about frivolous charges of racism. Yeah like that guy in the news that charged racism at some city council meeting because some described a bad situation as a “black hole.” Quite complaining about other people’s racism until you deal with your own.

–Hammerhead on Aug 19, 2008
To all the whining Americans - learn something from the Chinese hosts. They cheer for people when they won. I don’t hear their commentators bitch at all unlike those idiots NBC brought in. Talk about sore losers. Show some sportsmanship.

China is showing the world if it puts its mind to anything, it can achieve it. The Olympics is just one of the ways it is showing to the world everyone better bring their best if they want to win.

–RY on Aug 19, 2008
Now before anyone says I’m just another ‘whining’ American, let it be known I do have Cousins of Chinese decent. Now it was posted that the reason the ages of these Chinese gymnasts differ on the passports from other documentations listed is because they followed a ‘Lunar’ calendar through cultural custom, making a newborn seem a 2 year old. Doesn’t this open a ‘Pandora’s Box’? I mean next year are we going to see athletes using the Aztec calendar, the Mayan calendar, the Gregorian or the Druid calendar? Or maybe people from the land of the Midnight Sun will be underage because the Sun doesn’t actually come over the horizon? Oh and perhaps now its cultural for people to be taking something before they compete because its part of their national practice, so lets accept that too. Does this sound archaic and absurd? Well that is the direction this years Olympics has taken in more than one category, from judging to tie-breakers to age related incidents. As far as I know, the Olympics are composed of Countries who send their best to be United in its own ‘ Country of Countries’ with its own governing body, and forsaking all single customs to become united as ONE with rules governing all in fairness. So if the rest of the world doesn’t count its newborns as 2 years old and the Chinese KNOW this, they should make special passports for the events or notify the Olympic committee of these facts ahead of time for their commendation. I think that related to the above statement, the Chinese team was not following the Olympic rules of age in this event and should be disqualified.

–Kimanne on Aug 20, 2008
Hammerhead, obviously my post(s) touched a nerve; you realized there’s more than a grain of truth in it so like the fascist Chinese government you lash out defensively.
Why do you not respond to the substantive issues raised in my post? It cannot be denied that many Chinese and Chinese Americans harbor racist attitudes towards other people of color, esp. African Americans and Africans. I have African friends who studied in the PRC, at the invitation of the Chinese Commmunist Party as an expression of its ostensible solidarity with the struggling masses of the “Third World” no less, and they were appalled by the racism they encountered in that nation.
Likewise, I cannot count the number of times that Chinese Americans have expressed their hatred and fear of black people to me. These same folks would recoil in anger when they themselves were the targets of discrimination and expressions of racism against the Chinese in particular and Asians in general. There’s a glaring contradiction here, and it needs to be addressed, as does the virulent anti-Asian racism that permeates significant segments of the black (i.e., against the Koreans in L.A.) and other communities of color.

–Christian on Aug 20, 2008
Err Ryan you do know the evens of Hamm wasn’t of cheating but of poor juding on behalf of FIG? Or do you ignore those facts like the many others pointing out that the girls are under 16?

Also if you were into Gymnist and you know how the body works you realized that younger does make it better. Your body can do alot more things you can do when your younger then you can do with an adult body. Allowing you to perform feats no adult can.

I just like the fact that alot of people liked to jump on the “America cheats” band wagon but when another country cheats they just go “mehh”

–Ripster40 on Aug 20, 2008
I have been reading and watching the controversy surrounding all of this, and I find it silly really. From what I have read, the American gymnasts agree with the ruling, as do the judges. They competed, and proved themselves the victors. Ask anyone who has won an olympic medal what it would feel like to have your victory and right to that medal questioned. I personally would be sick to my stomach. To those of you touting that if they were younger there physical abilities would be greater, this may be true however there lack of expierence would likely balance this out one way or the other. To those trying to play the race card, stop it please, honestly every race white, black, asian and so forth should really get over it. Is race an issue, yes. Should it be? I dont think so, The bottom line, to me, is that the olympics to 99% of the world is entertainment, watching the best of the best gather together to compete for there national pride, China won, do you think they are going to care that the world questions the age of the gymnasts? not over the fact that they did indeed have the best. So the rest of us would be best served to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

–Slightly miffed on Aug 21, 2008
Yet if america pulled the same stun as China did it would be a whole different story.

–Ripster40 on Aug 21, 2008
Isn’t the IOC responsible to ensure that the gymnasts were 16 years of age?? If China provided documentation stating that the gymnasts were 16 years old, yet the IOC did not ivestigate (had they felt the need to), why blame China…….

–Robert on Aug 21, 2008
Their young age doesn’t make their feat more amazing but is really cheating. Girls at a younger age are more nimble, have better balance, which are very important for the events that gymnasts do. There’s a reason why there’s a lower age limit for gymnastics.

–Jason on Aug 21, 2008
The age discrepancy as documented by passports might be better understood or explained by referring to “Asian Age Reckoning” in Wikipedia online- it is decidedly different than in western cultures.
I remember learning this in college more than 30 yrs. ago when studying different cultures.
Regardless, I feel Olympic standards for participation should be by convention as set by the Oympic Committee and the same for all comers, i.e., if the Chinese teams may enter children under the age of 16, then so should all other countries have the same benefit.

–Joanne on Aug 21, 2008
Hi all

I have read this forum from start to finish, and feel it is drifting from core issues somewhat. Also, since it seems to matter to some, I’m an Australian. We weren’t expected to win gymnastics medals and we lived up to that expectation, so I don’t have a vested interest in the outcome of this argument. Also, for the record, my wife is from Laos, which I realise is not China, I just wanted to point out that I hope I don’t start with pre-conceived racial biases.

There is an age limit on gymnastics athletes because various governing bodies, in conjunction with medical professionals, decided that the gymnastics was too arduous for young developing bodies. Their bones are insufficiently dense, their ligaments insufficiently strong, and their body structures still forming and developing. One of my friends has a daughter of 13 or 14 who trains with the Aust. Institute of Sport in gymnastics. She has already had a long list of serious injuries (serious to me at least) at her young age, so ensuring an athlete’s body can handle the strain of the sport is not an unrealistic precaution. Given the years of training required for a top athlete it was decided that having an age limit would allow training academies to begin their training programs later at a safer time for girls.

As one person asked, what about swimming? I guess the bodies governing that sport decided that swimming didn’t pose the same physical risk and so haven’t set the same age limits.

Whether you agree with the rule or not its irrelevant. That’s the rule. Everyone knew it, and at that level of competition everyone knows how to calculate an age by Olympic standards. So if you were under the age group you’re out. Same as any other Olympic rule.

Were the Chinese girls under age? We don’t know. The various reports I have read seem to indicate that there is a case to investigate. However, as ryan has pointed out, they are innocent until proven guilty and should be treated as champions. If the case isn’t investigated, or if the IOC does a poor investigation through external pressure, or if the investigation is hampered through sport body or any government intervention than shame on them. I hope in the coming weeks more light will be shed on this and the truth will come out.

As to who cheated, and who is claiming they cheated. It is any countries right to ask for another athlete to be investigated if they have some kind of reasonable information. But its not a racial thing. Athletes from probably every country, and their governing bodies, have cheated at one point or another through history. This is about the individuals and whoever assisted them, not the rest of the population, so lets keep it to that.

Sorry for the long post.

Cheers
Gavin

–Gavin on Aug 21, 2008
Actually right now IOC is actually probing into the Gymnast age, since information has come to the light thats raising questions.

–Ripster40 on Aug 21, 2008
Let he who’s country is without cheats cast the first stone.
Maybe Marion Jones can go first.

–Huang Fong on Aug 21, 2008
The younger athletes do have an advantage physically in gymnastics. Also, this is so much pressure to put on a kid. Think of all the training they go through. The way China takes all those little kids and forces them to train. Only a tiny percentage of them become anything in the sport and the rest are like leftover throwaway kids. Not to mention how completely damaged they must be after living like that. The world really shouldn’t put up with it. I wonder what happened to the amazing 16year-old athletes that were replaced by these 14 year olds. No doubt they devoted their whole life to the sport and now are left with nothing. The age limit is there so that kids don’t end up out there with the weight of their whole country on their tiny little shoulders. So that they don’t snap their little growth plates off trying to do things that their bodies aren’t ready to do. If America did this, those girls would have lost their medals already. The second any rumor came out, a thorough investigation would have found the truth. I bet nothing actually comes of this even though it is most likely true.

–becca on Aug 21, 2008
I understand that tonight, it was announced that the IOC is officially investigating the age allegations of the three Chinese Gymnasts. I say…Bravo! Check Everyone’s ages! Make it fair across the board.

–AbbaFreak on Aug 21, 2008
“Let he who’s country is without cheats cast the first stone.
Maybe Marion Jones can go first.

–Huang Fong”

Huang Fong, maybe you could explain what you mean by this. Jones has been stripped of her medals, world records, and is currently serving jail time in a United States federal prison. Quite a bit different than the Chinese approach of enlisting government help to cheat her way to a medal.

–n00b on Aug 21, 2008
And if she’s really 16, why is the Chinese government acting so guilty by quietly deleting all these files showing otherwise from their webservers, even going to far as to have them removed from search engine caches like Google?

–n00b on Aug 21, 2008
For those who think the Chinese are above cheating like this, don’t forget that Yang Yun later admitted that she was only 14 when she competed in the Sidney games, only 8 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Yun

I’m sure the Chinese government provided her a “proper” passport back then, too.

–n00b on Aug 21, 2008
Stage mothers of the world . . .
UNITE.
You have nothing to lose but the chains of your vicarious existences.
You, mom, “at last”?
At last, your darling may be honored in place of “their” darling.
The recognition? The celehrity? The perks?
As for Noob, you are awash in a sea of ambivalent, bipolar realieites and irrealities, none of which relates to the fact that, whatever their chronological “age,” the winners of the “gold” here are veritable “champions,” regzazrdless of age and rules and technicalities.
Maybe a under-16 and an “over” may be called for in the future, but the main point is pointless insofar as all the hoohah is concerned.
And, yes, Mama Rose, it’s time to get off the friggin’ runway, and let the kids hog the spotlight.
Your pathetic neees are the proper subject for psychologists AND psychoterapists, and include the likes of those who enter little girls into sad and prurient approximations of their elders’ lack of taste, mcuh less judgment.
Little Miss Sunshine, anyone?

–Frank Eng on Aug 22, 2008
noob,

I have no doubt China is capable of cheating, but the biggest cheats of all is still America and Russia. There were lots of pressure on the IOC to investigate Marion Jones and discover “the clear” which was not detectable during doping test for the Sydney games. Americans are absolutely capable of cheating and should not be pointing the fingers until all the dust are clear. Marion Jones was innocent until proven guilty. From most of the comments that I have read, I would say “thou shall not judge.” Especially from a country full of cheats.

Tsurumi Koko of Japan is even shorter than the shortest Chinese gymnast. Asians in general do not develop as fast, because they don’t drink as much milk. As an American, I say we focus on Micheal Phelps and all the positives and let the IOC handle the rest.

–Huang Fong on Aug 22, 2008
I am a White American, and would like to enter this Forum not to Cuss, and Discuss the Ages and the validity of Whether or Not the Chineese Cheated. beacuse, If all the Athletes that participated from every country Were to Raise the Flag, and Say “hey those Girls that I have been competing against for the last Year in the World event, and every other event that got us here are under age” I would agree. It should be up to the Athletes to complain if they feel Cheated there the ones that should speak up but they are not!!! They have excepted the results, and seem to be moving on with there Lives. My questions is How can a Country with over 1 Billion People Possibly Keep and Maintain Birth certificates? what would happen to those Girls in that Culture If they were to Lose? they are considered superstars if they win! But how are they treated if they Don’t win? I have to say that sports is always subjective. I would like to end by saying that I beleive that China has Built one of the most beautifull venues for the Olympics that I have Ever Seen, and they have been gracious and Kind to all the Athletic teams from all over the world Including the ones that they have political differences with! . The Second Best was Athens, the Country Of Greece did a fantastic Job as well. Botom Line People is that on a Personal Level we are all Human, we inhabit this world together whether or not we Like It, but usually on a personal level we can all get along…It’s Politics that get in the way. So Drop this Frickin subject!!! All countries are winning and Loosing. As far as the Gymnastic events are concerend whatever the ages of the athletes they all did a fantastic job, The american team has nothing to be ashamed of. This is My most Humble opinion. I would like the Cultural questions answered, I am most interested in the Human rights of the Chinees Peolple. thank you in advance!

USNAVYRET!

–NAVRET on Aug 22, 2008
To the idiot that linked the Wikipedia page… Wikipedia =/= fact.

Besides..

“Several American sport sites claim that Yang Yun admitted in an interview aired on state broadcaster China Central Television that she was 14 during the 2000 Games. However, no video recording founded to verify the claim.”

… notice how it’s only “American” sports sites? Bunch of sore losers that complain about everything. Booohooooo fake fireworks! Uhhh welcome to the 21 century? By the way.. the giant scroll on the floor of the stadium.. IS NOT A REAL SCROLL! OH EM GEE TEH LIES…

–lolamericans on Aug 22, 2008
This reminds me those pics we took from high school years. All of us looked much younger than our ages. We were about to graduate high school, but we looked like 12 or 13 year old boys/girls. You can check out some high school websites from Asian countries.

I can defend the Chinese with this line ” The American looks older than Asian boys/girls, because they have sex too early.”

Why not make it an issue before competing. They were practing in the same stadium. It is only an issue after the Chinese won Golds.

I wonder if the Chinese won Gold and the Russian got the Silver, would the Russian make this an issue? I doubt.

I agree, if you are Asians and you are more successful, you are likely to be shot down in America. Remember an Korean family from DC got into a legal fight with the former judge?

–Ryan on Aug 23, 2008
I for one think this is a pretty interesting situation. I think that if the girls are under 16, the rules should not be bent and they should be punished; especially since China was the host country, that would be very embarrassing. However, since there really isn’t any proof, we Americans shouldn’t stand around cursing at each other and making a big deal. We should just take it in, learn from it, and (if they were really under 16) make sure nobody ever tries to sneak an underage athlete in ever again.

However, concerning the sport of Gymnastics, if these girls were indeed underage and could perform well above others, I think they are amazing. Yea the rules are rules and if they are yonger than 16, they should be punished. But think about it. We all are humans. And just as the corny commercial says “When they succeed, we succeed.” Push the racist thoughts aside. Think of it as if your own people are accused of cheating.

–Cathy on Aug 24, 2008
Here are updates on the investigation. These links are especially for those who believe whatever they read on the Internet (i.e. Sal Bergeron). You can draw whatever conclusions you like from these articles, but it looks like everything checks out thus far:

http://www.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics/news/newsid=253637.html#rogge+paperwork+shows+chinese+gymnasts+underage

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/08/22/gymnasts.age.ap/index.html

http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/gymnastics/story/2008/08/24/gymnast-ages.html

–Ryan C on Aug 24, 2008
Americans are not sore losers. We are seeking the moral high grounds and whenever we see something phony or someone breaking the rules, it gets under our skins. As Americans, we don’t ever drive faster, than the speed limits. All the ladies in our country have real boobs, we don’t ever try to gloss over our imperfections.

–Huang Fong on Aug 24, 2008
I think the Chinese team ages should be checked. If they are of the correct age then more power to them, but if they aren’t then thats great!

–Alexandra S on Aug 24, 2008
“This reminds me those pics we took from high school years. All of us looked much younger than our ages. We were about to graduate high school, but we looked like 12 or 13 year old boys/girls. You can check out some high school websites from Asian countries.

I can defend the Chinese with this line ” The American looks older than Asian boys/girls, because they have sex too early.”

Why not make it an issue before competing. They were practing in the same stadium. It is only an issue after the Chinese won Golds.

I wonder if the Chinese won Gold and the Russian got the Silver, would the Russian make this an issue? I doubt.

I agree, if you are Asians and you are more successful, you are likely to be shot down in America. Remember an Korean family from DC got into a legal fight with the former judge?”

you sir, are the biggest moron on the entire website. i have no idea where that “sex fact” came up from, but i am sure a 15 year old american having sex does not make them “look older”, it just means they made a mistake very early on in life.

it WAS brought up before the games. anyone with eyes can see something is up.

whoever says younger girls should be praised even more are also morons. as stated 1568 times on this site, they have an advantage. i am not going to repeat the same facts.

i personally think that the American girls were upset. however, i would much rather be safe in my own country before i made a complaint about it, wouldn’t want to disappear.

as for those talking about diets and how american girls look, let’s me break down myself. i am a 24 year old female. i hate the taste of milk and avoid drinking it at all costs. my diet consists of lots of hamburgers and pizza, very few fruits and veggies. i weigh a grand total of 103 pounds at 5″4. i am carded ALL THE TIME! people give my husband looks like he is a pedo every where we go. so while i can understand the PAIN of being mistaken for a younger person, i can back up my age. there aren’t documents out there stating i am really 20, making me unable to drink. we have tons of family photos/videos that are time stamped. there is not one piece of evidence stating i am anything but my age. people are saying not to believe an “incorrect news report”…but why not? if the chinese government was really that focus on ‘training” these kids from diapers, wouldn’t they DEMAND a retraction or correct that news article right then and there? why wait until this year to get rid of all this magical evidence? as a parent or even the individual themselves, why wouldn’t they voice their concerns over an incorrect age mentioned in an article, knowing this could affect their future? sounds all a bit too magical to me.

i hate how people say “the Chinese out performed the Americans”. no, these “underage girls” did. if they had not been in the games, there would have been a different team. who knows if THAT team would have been enough to beat the Americans or anyone else. people need to quit calling Americans whiners and sore losers. play the game by the rules and no one will get called a cheater.

–Christina on Aug 24, 2008
Christina, fine if you believe all of these news reports on the Internet, then you’ll have no problem believing the reports in the links that I posted a few posts ago.

So if the reports are indeed correct (coming from NBC, CNN, and CBC), then China DID play by the rules, yet Americans were calling them cheaters even though they were not proven guilty.

You’re right; “the Chinese out performed the Americans” is incorrect. The correct phrase would be, “the Chinese women’s gymnastics team outperformed the American women’s gymnastics team”.

And I wouldn’t say that all Americans are whiners. Not by a long shot. I would say only those Americans who are ignorant are whiners because they call foulplay the moment they come in 2nd place. This “underage” issue was NOT a huge deal (although it was certainly still an issue) until the team competition finished.

Maybe the IOC will still find something to prove China’s team cheated. Who knows? Until then, suck it up and move on.

–Ryan C on Aug 24, 2008
Ryan, of course there will be few complaints unless it’s over the gold. As far as people’s future lives are concerned, that is what makes all the difference. The entire future of everyone involved in a gold medal win is changed forever by the choice of winner.

And if it was the Romanians who were edged out there would be a much bigger fuss, because other countries would stand up for them, and people in the US wouldn’t be too ashamed to look like “whiners”. This is just basic politics and nothing anyone can do about it. People like to see an unpopular country like the US lose. Sometimes that unpopular country will be Germany, sometimes Israel, sometimes the US, in the next Olympics probably China. That’s how it goes. No one will change human nature on this score, but in each case someone should stand up for what is right.

I was every bit as pissed about Svetlana losing out over the vault issue in Sydney. But it least it was a honest mistake and not cheating. It was harder to build the outrage, and poor Svetlana was boxed in — as here, she didn’t want to appear a “whiner”. As a result, she lost out on a life for which she had worked for years. Her life was forever altered by the unfair situation set up as a result of that incident.

There is an innate biological tendency for humans to seek fairness. Under research conditions human players will seek to right perceived wrongs even at their own expense.

The IOC won’t act unless under pressure because the Olympics is primarily about politics. I’m not saying this as a slam to the Olympics, that’s just what it’s about. The Chinese government sure as hell won’t do anything, not unless they’ve changed a lot since I was there. And really, if you’ve never lived in China you’ve no idea how easy it is to fake documents and cover tracks.

The university I was employed by had people who hadn’t shown up for work for years and yet had “proof” they were working. Companies without employees have paperwork showing the work they’ve done. Grades and attendance records were manufactured as needed.

You really think no one caught these “errors” in the earlier Chinese media? Do you really think it wasn’t possible to whip up school records within days of this issue being raised. Don’t worry, those school records will exist now. But only because the IOC provided the government with the time needed to manufacture them.

–LM on Aug 25, 2008
LM, you raise some very valid points. I’m not trying to defend the Chinese government. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if documents were forged. However, I also believe that whining about these “injustices” solves nothing. If the government did manufacture these documents, there’s really no way to prove that they did and the case is closed. If the government did NOT manufacture these documents on the fly, then women’s team are of age and the case is closed. Why are we beating this dead horse?

Humans seek fairness, but at the same time need to realize that life isn’t always fair. But fairness is also subjective as one person may see an action as being fair while someone else does not. I personally think that the events unfolded in a fair way (using my definition of “fair”). The IOC did their “investigation” (whether or not you want to call it that is your decision) and everything looks like it checks out. If China and the US changed places, I would say that the US produced the documents and there is no way to prove that they were forged, so I would move on.

As for China being the unpopular country in the next Olympics, I would have to disagree. China was already the unpopular country in these Olympics in the minds of many Americans (try listening to the NBC broadcasters compared to the CBC ones). I’m sure China will remain unpopular among the US in the future. And I can only speak for myself, but I feel that the US is unpopular in the minds of several other countries because they have a tendency to “police” the world.

–Ryan C on Aug 25, 2008
So Ryan it seems to me you are justifying cheating and lying.

Well I’m never watching the Olympics again, because nowadays thats all I see, instead of true athletes we got snakes and cheaters trying to get medals. Its sad, ancient greeks are rolling in there graves.

–Ripster40 on Aug 25, 2008
Ripster40, I’m not justifying cheating and lying. I’m all for the truth and justice if/when they are available. What I really want is for ignorant fools such as yourself to quit whining about facts that are beyond your control.

Yes, don’t watch the Olympics ever again. The Olympics will be better off without sore losers such as yourself ruining the spirit of the Olympics. God forbid another nation triumphs over the mighty States.

–Ryan C on Aug 25, 2008
From your comments you frankly don’t care about justice and rather sit on your hands and do nothing.

When I see cheating, when the goverment has been pulling down websites on the 4 gymnast that raises very hard to dear questions, just ignoring it is just stupid.

–Ripster40 on Aug 25, 2008
Ryan, you state “I personally think that the events unfolded in a fair way (using my definition of “fair”).” If they did cheat, how is it fair? Either you don’t know whether it is fair or not (not knowing, by your own reckoning, what happened), or you have a very different definition of fair than anyone else I’ve ever talked to.

I don’t know who Ripster is or what his nationality is, but how do you know whether or not he gives a **** if the US won? I see nothing in his writing that implies he wanted the US to win (except out of fairness), or even that he is a US citizen. Perhaps you have outside discussions to which I am not a party.

I, for one didn’t want the US to win when the olympics started. For the record, I’m a dual national not born in this country. And don’t even begin to make assumptions based on those details.

In competition I almost always root for the underdog, and for countries with few medals. I’m a sucker for the good story. I also find the same team winning over and over extremely boring.

However, once the athletes are out there and I *do* know who really did best, I do what any normal and ethical person I hope also does — I hope the medal goes to the one who deserves it. I may not be 100% happy at that point, but I know greatness when I see it and I believe it is to be rewarded, so it’s own sake and for the sake of promoting the best level of fairness we can, in a largely harsh and unfair world.

Svetlana deserved much more in Sydney and she didn’t get it. In Beijing, putting the US entirely aside, Beth Tweddle of the UK deserves her bronze on Bars. Otherwise the competition is a joke.

You really have no idea if I or anyone else is motivated out of some zealous loyalty to the US team. You have no idea what people’s motivations are when they argue, and to manufacture them as supposed argument is just bad debate, and, dare I say, exemplary “poor sportsmanship”.

So here’s my little off the wall analysis since you’ve declared such as fair game: making stuff up in a discussion is clearly “fair” in your book. Mixing supposed motivation and factual debate is too. With those kinds of standards it’s no wonder you think government institutionalized thinking “fair” — whatever wins the deal, eh?

–LM on Aug 25, 2008
Ripster40, you embarrass yourself with your lack of information. Reports have stated that it’s 3 gymnasts that are under investigation; not 4. When you have your facts straight, then come back and try to put up a well-constructed argument.

LM, you’re either twisting my words or misinterpreting my posts, or I haven’t provided enough information for you to understand what I’m trying to say. IF the Chinese gymnasts cheated, THEN I would not deem the current situation fair, and the medals should be stripped from the team. You’re under the assumption that I think everything is okay if the team did indeed cheat. I say if the IOC has come to the conclusion that the Chinese team cheated, then strip them of their medals. However, until that time comes (if ever), all is fair in my opinion.

You’re right. I don’t know if Ripster40 is a US citizen. Why would you think that I was under that impression? I don’t recall saying anything that made this connection, even after looking through my previous posts.

Hey, I’m no pro when it comes to debates. I don’t know what drives people to form their opinions and motivations. But you’re in the same boat, so you might want to reconsider your comment regarding “poor sportsmanship” as it would apply to you as well.

Wow, lots of assumptions in your final paragraph. From what little you know of me (based on my few posts), you are quickly able to judge. I’m sure you know better than that, but you just wanted to stir up trouble. I’ve done the same.

In any case, there is really no further point in debating. You have your opinions and I have mine. We’re both unlikely to change those opinions based on what the other has to say.

–Ryan C on Aug 26, 2008
Ryan,

You stated to Ripster 40 “The Olympics will be better off without sore losers such as yourself ruining the spirit of the Olympics. God forbid another nation triumphs over the mighty States.”

It would take a heck of a creative interpretation to see this as anything but a statement that Ripster a) is a US citizen and B) is arguing this issue because he recoils in horror at another nation triumphing over the united states.

And of course there are a lot of assumptions in my final paragraph; it was parody. WAY too subtle apparently. Calling it an “off the wall analysis” didn’t tip you off?

–LM on Aug 26, 2008
I thought you’re innocent until proven guilty. Granted, sometimes, it’s extremely hard to prove someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt with the available evidence, in which case that person goes free regardless of actual guilt. Like Ryan said, if it’s proven the Chinese women are indeed underage, then strip them of their medals. But it’s not enough to speculate their age based on appearances or to assume that the government forged the girls’ passports this time even if the government has done so before. The games are fair until proven otherwise.

–HH on Aug 26, 2008
LM, my apologies then. I should have split up my last two sentences as the second sentence was meant as a general statement for everyone and not directly aimed at Ripster40. But I know this explanation will not change your mind anyways.

Yes, and how I said “you just wanted to stir up trouble” apparently wasn’t enough for you to understand that I know it’s a parody. Yeesh. Please read an entire post before making comments about it.

HH, I couldn’t agree more. “Innocent until proven guilty” upholds justice. So I say let the investigations continue and if the IOC finds out that they were cheating then everyone can continue accusing the team and government of cheating. Until then, these accusations hold no value and just appear to be a case of sour grapes.

–Ryan C on Aug 26, 2008
I’m suprised this debate hasn’t shifted onto the subject of when life starts, on conception or birth? ;-)

–ToraG on Aug 29, 2008
Further investigation into the ages of China’s gymnasts occurred because of multiple web site findings which listed the girls’ ages as younger (not because of their physical appearance). Isn’t it interesting that these sites were later modified, or removed? How smart does one have to be to figure out what’s going on there?

Since when is lying OK, under any circumstances? Athletes who lie should be disqualified and banned from sports - period. A Chinese athlete lied about her age in 2004, took home a gold medal, and later admitted to having lied. If the shoe was on the other foot - any other foot - would people take such a PC attitude? Absolutely not! Bravo for the American gymnasts, who graciously dealt with the obviously skewed scoring, which was the real and observable travesty of gymnastics competition in Beijing. They can take pride in having EARNED their medals!

–MTN on Aug 30, 2008
there is a lot of pressure on a host country to do good at the Olympics. This is where the integrity of a country and its people is revealed. There was a a girl from anther country that started a routine before the green light was given. That routine was given a ZERO. No if’s and’s or but’s. The same should hold true for the China Team, an investigation should be made, A SERIOUS investigation, and if they are found to be under 16 then any medals acquired should be given to the real winners. I am not an American, but I am a human being and seeing how hard these athletes from all over the world work to get a shot at the Olympics and then to have it STRIPPED because someone doesn’t follow the rules. You can take the medal away and hand it to the real winner, but you cant hand them the experience back, that is lost forever, and that right there, is the real crime.

–EA on Sep 02, 2008
This video is the best evidence of the Chinese Women Gymnasts’ innocence that I have seen so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtB5VLxOBsQ