Spanish Olympians - More Controversial Photos Uncovered
August 15, 2008
Just one day after the media centered the spotlight on Spain’s Olympic men’s basketball team and their offensive photo, more photos were discovered and surfaced on Spain’s other teams. New additions to the controversy are Spain’s women’s basketball team and Spain’s women’s tennis team. Despite the large media attention, Spain has issued no formal response or apology.
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AsianWeek would like to create a healthy platform for multicultural discourse on issues that affect our community. As an integral part of the Asian American community, we would like to know how you feel about these photos and what should be done. Were these photos made in “good fun?” Or were these photos completely unacceptable and utterly racist?
Please make respectable comments in accordance with our policy stated below.
Thank you.
Comments
102 Responses to “Spanish Olympians - More Controversial Photos Uncovered”
Having been in Latin America as a kid and surviving such taunts (as in the pictures) while being called “chino, chino,” I know that this gesture is not good fun. I thought that maybe Spain was different than Latin America, but from what I read around, they do the same. I guess, like father, like son.
The fact that the Spanish people don’t think there is anything wrong with this shows how ethno-centric they are. It is certainly not a sign of endearment, as the Spanish basketball would make you think.
I would welcome the views of Asians who actually lived and experienced such taunts in Spain.
My daughter had two classmates do this to her earlier this year in first grade, although she didn’t tell me until recently. Even at the age of 7, having never experienced anything racist or sexist (well, maybe sexism by her Korean grandparents) in her life and was taught to treat others as how she would like to be treated, knew right away that what those kids did was wrong. Thankfully, she had the courage to tell them directly and firmly right then and there to stop and a healthy self-image to not be troubled by it. So, when she saw me reading this article earlier this week she asked me why those adults were doing what her classmates did. My explanation to her was that adults, like children, can get mischievous and unless someone tells them to knock it off, they’ll keep on doing it–and the nonremorseful ones will say they didn’t know what they did was hurtful.
All this tells us is that they don’t have all-powerful Asian PC police in spain like we have in the states. People all over the world do this to pretend being chinese. Sometimes they are trying to be cute, sometimes they are trying to taunt, same with blackface, it’s not always in malice. Anybody can take offence at anything - the English used “Chinaman” all the time because it’s never meant to be an offence. Complain all you want, if you want to jump all over these people who I’ll bet don’t a racist bone or an ounce of malice in their bodies, so be it, I think it’s better to politely remind people of what people in other cultures are offended by and make it a teaching moment, and not inflict even more hatred on what appears to be an innocent gesture by innocent people. Other nations make hilarious fun of American stereotypes all the time - just watch BBC’s Top Gear, you can laugh or protest all you want. Peace.
The Spaniards are a bunch of racist, intolerant pigs. These are the same people that brought us the inquisition. Why am I not surprised? I hope those teams get torn to shreds by the nationalist Chinese, but unfortunately, I think the hosts are too polite.
They sure are stupid. They also look very stupid in those pictures.
The Spanish team asserts that this gesture was made in an attempt to “honor” and “show solidarity with the people of the Orient”. I know of no Asian who has been subjected to this gesture in a context where it was to promote friendship and solidarity. Typically, what followed after a gesture like this were racial epithets and attempted beatings. If a team were to take a similar photo, say for the World Cup being held in South Africa, where all the players were pursing their lips, I’m sure the discourse wouldn’t be whether or not this is a racial insult but what type of punishment should be meted out. To the poster above who refers to a “teaching moment”, a teaching moment would require the individuals involved to take accountability for their actions, as opposed to making weak excuses. For anyone who questions the intent of the action, ask any five year old Asian child what that gesture means, and I promise you the answer will have nothing to do with respect/solidarity/honor.
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The picture makes these dumb jocks look more stupid and ignorant that they already are.
One of the basketball players (Jose Calderon) who is playing for Spain also plays for the NBA (Toronto Raptors, they suck anyways).
One of the papers here in NY quoted him as saying it was a loving gesture. Right, so will Spain’s basketball team asses being served on a gold platter.
The Spanish basketball team’s excuse that it was meant to “honor” the Chinese is bull. It’s a lousy excuse that sounds ridiculous. Gestures such as this are racist. Maybe they are just too stupid and ethnocentric to realize it.
I hate to say it, but Latinos, in my experience, are among the most racist groups of people I’ve ever encountered. I’ve heard more racist remarks from them, even about other Latinos from other countries, than from any other race of people.
Unfortunate to see this trend continue to be confirmed, but at least they are dumb enough to allow the ENTIRE WORLD to see they have racial insensitivity issues…
I am astonished to see those photos surfaced, especially they were taken during their stay in China as Olympians. They sure are ignorant and stupid, but I just cannot deny that there is not a shred of racism in any of them at all.
I hope they are kicked out of China right at this moment, but as someone put earlier, the host is way too nice!
Spain has become a name that I put on my blacklist.
I’ve tried to explain this many times to explain racism to white people from Europe, but the truth is that most white people from Europe don’t see it. And why should they? After all, they never had a civil rights movement there. They didn’t eliminate slavery there before we did. America has always been the country taking the lead on racial issues. That’s what makes our country great.
For Americans reading this, I’d recommend writing a letter to the NBA or to the Lakers/Raptors. Contact Commissioner Stern. Tell them what you think of them paying racists to play on their teams. If these two guys from Spain don’t want to respect Asian Americans and our history with that gesture, then they shouldn’t be on an American payroll. Send ‘em back home.
Seriously, who cares about Gasol or Calderon anyway? It’s not as if we’d be losing Shaq or Yao.
I don’t get it! How does this kind of gesture symbolize “honor.” That’s a bunch of bull! This racist gesture needs to be probed further. Stereotypically, the Spaniards have a higher-than-thou attitude. If the gesture were made towards African Americans, these punks would be shredded into pieces. It’s fortunate for them that the Chinese government and Asians around the world are playing safe and submissive — typical reaction! Write to the Spain Embassy and other government agencies! Economic boycott is a powerful tool!
I’m Chinese and I was extremely offended when I saw this picture. I was more furious at their lame attempt to say that this was an “affectionate” gesture. I see nothing affectionate about it. If I took the Spanish flag and spat on it, will they be convinced if I said afterwards that I was just trying to kiss the flag??!!! I am not convinced that they didn’t mean any ill-will by that gesture. They knew what they were doing. If Pau Gasol said he was uncomfortable with it, it sounds like he knew the significance of it too. Don’t insult our intelligence!!!!
I think that all Asians should start a petiition and write to all those of concern, the International Olympic Committe, the Chinese Government, the Lakers/NBA, th Spanish Basketball Team, etc to let them know that this is absolutely unacceptable behavior. As Asians, we are not going to quietly sit by and let people continue to taunt us and demean us. We have to give ourselves a voice and let them know this needs to stop!!
I’ve read posts elsewhere where the Spaniards claim that the Chinese in China are not offended. The Chinese people in China don’t understand the significance of this gesture because they don’t have to endure this racism in China. People are not going to walk around in China making that gesture at each other. As for us Asians who live outside of our motherland and who have had to endure racist remarks and gestures, it is OFFENSIVE to us. We know the exact meaning of that gesture. It is hurtful!!!!
Send an email to the NBA:
http://www.nba.com/webAction?actionId=surveyInitialize&target=/email_us/contact.jsp&surveyId=1511
I don’t like the pictures but I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They just need to be educated about why it offends us. Racism is something that is learned. Educate them and hopefully we can all settle this peacefully.
Such actions by the Spanish are unacceptable and should be not be taken lightly. We all - asians or non asains - should stand up and stop this kind of offensive racism actions by the Spanish. Which race or nationality are they going to target next? Please do not wait until it is you before you speak up!
I say boycott all Spanish exports and travels to Spain.
I am in no way defending what this team did. But, I have many friends in Europe. They don’t have a great diversity and are not used to different cultures and customs. I believe that this team was not aware of the racial impact that the photo would have. Many of my friends have never seen a single person from Asia. Even so, they realize that something seems “wrong” with the photo although they don’t quite know why. Racist? Yes. Deliberate? Perhaps not.
A good lesson for everyone.
I am spanish and I can’t understand wich is the problem with this photo…
What does it mean for a chinese? Is that some kind of insult or something there? Is it an insult for asians in other countries maybe?
Most spanish figure chinese as almond-shaped eyes but it is not intended to insult… They were just becoming chinese i think.
And comments like Jeff Lew one are not commentable…
In the US some call them “Spiks” and they feel offended.
Now as guests in China which warmly welcomed them as Olympians, they collectively behave in a most childish,
senseless, insulting way to make fun of the Chinese.
In fact, Chinese people do not have so called “slenty eyes” and some Chinese are even whiter than some of the Spaniards. We all know that Southen Spain was occupied by the Moors (who are black African Moslems) for over 400 years and many Spaniards are descendents of mulatos (black/white mix) and have rather dark skins.
Chinese people never laughed at Spaniards but some Latinos think somehow they are more “superior” as they
believe that they are “white”.
Ludicrous, narrow-minded peasant bigots, those who
were in the stupid photo.
People like awarthurhu and Mel Banks are just as insensitive as the Spaniards. To suggest that this racist gesture was just an innocent gesture is just as ignorant.
I travel for business internationally and I recently went to Spain. I thought the Spaniards would be as pleasant as other Europeans that I have encountered, but I was surprised to find that the Spaniards made degrading comments to me (I speak fluent Spanish), gave me dirty looks, and outright refused to help me because I was asian.
My boyfriend, who is Danish, also noticed how differently he was treated and how I was treated. He also noticed that everyone had a disgusted look towards asians.
When I confronted one of the wait staff at a fancy restaurant about a family who stared at me the whole dinner and whose kids taunted me all night, the staff stated that asians belong in the back and not with the patrons. I was horrified.
I never want to go back to Spain ever.
Being a caucasian (French origins and nationality) living in China, I discovered how rude those mimics could look to Chinese.
The point is I never found offensive to do that before because my point is not to hurt anyone; I was just trying to “look like” when I was doing this as I would do the Cow-Boy to express USA or shake my hand to look Italian.
Yeah, it was a kind of a joke: “Look, I’m in Asia, and even if I’d like too, I will never look Chinese”
Where other countries in the World, you can be French, American, or whatever and actually look asian, it’s quite uncommon to be Chinese (considering the population and the fact that China is very protective) and look Caucasian. So the best mimic is about physical appearance.
I don’t think flaming anybody will solve any cultural issue. So please consider that people don’t think the same way, and that “maybe” (unless the idea behind is to _be_ rude, but that can only be proved by a conversation face to face), it was more like a welcome gesture than a insult.
People ARE different (physically, culturally, whatever…), let’s live with this instead of crying for racism everytime something doesn’t fit in. :)
I am a Chinese and I do not care. I only care about how a human treats me. I do not have time to get angry when a dog barking at me. That’s not my business anyway.
That gesture is funny. What do these idiots doing?
QUOTE:
“I’ve tried to explain this many times to explain racism to white people from Europe, but the truth is that most white people from Europe don’t see it. And why should they? After all, they never had a civil rights movement there. They didn’t eliminate slavery there before we did. America has always been the country taking the lead on racial issues. That’s what makes our country great.”
Biggest LOL ever.
This photo was taken with no racist intentions at all, chinese government has already told the dont find it offensive. ¿Where the f*** do American newspapers fit telling spanish team how racist they were and telling chinese people how offended they should feel?
If spanish and chinese people still can live in a world where being different phisically doesnt mean anything you could go to hell with your stupid complexes.
Maybe in Spain we are less politically correct than you are in the USA, There’s no offence in trying to resemble physical appearence. Imagine the olympics in London, they could have dressed with a funny hat and suit or something. you must understand European culture, in contrast with anglo-saxon is far less conscious about correctness.
No one in China is feeling this as offensive, nor the chinese authorities toward Spain’s government has spoken to.
Our country has the major foreign community in Europe right now (people from Marocco, rest of Africa, Romania, China, Pakistan, India, Bulgaria, Russia, even Britain and Germany) and we don’t have any racial problem or issue.
And if you think you’re the country of freedom and respect I remind you the Chinese exclusion act (1882-1943), and racial segregation until 1964!.
We ended up with slavery in 1873 just 8 years after your Civil War, and people were equal in rights from the beginning, they didn’t have to wait for 100 years.
Hello, I am Spanish and I can say that in any case in Spain makes this gesture as something racist or offensive. If the Americans or the British see this gesture as offensive would have to think that the offense is in his mind, not the intention of those who do.
Nietzsche said: “There are no facts, only interpretations” and american’s interpretation is wrong
All Spain is shocked by the controversy created with this picture.
Do you know why?? Because nobody saw any racist meaning in this picture!!
So, please, explain me where is the racist connotation: is it in the eyes of the basketball players in the picture or is it in the eyes of the viewers??
I’m Spanish and I think I’m not racist at all, the truth is that this gesture is Spain is not racist, it’s only a way to say that you are chinnese, it has nothing to do with meaning that you are better than other. It could be the same than take a photo with a boomerang for example to say that you are from Australia, it’s simply to show a typical symbol from another country. It’s nice to know that people is offended by this in order to don’t offend anybody in the future.
Sometimes it sounds to me, that people want to hurts and they use what they can even an stupid inofensive photo.
This is such a load of bullshit. I’m Spanish, but both my parents are Koreans and I have, obviously, slanted eyes.
I have NEVER been shown that as an offensive sign. In fact, being a girl, people absolutely love slanted eyes here and see it as a sign of beauty.
I live in a neighbourhood with lots of Asians, mostly Chinese, and nobody here feels those pictures were offensive at all. In fact, they are so confused as the rest of Spain about why would the English press start such a controversy.
I think what happens here is pretty clear:
- USA and UK are over sensitive about racism, probably trying to give the impression that they don’t have racism problems. Spain has racist problems too (not bigger than what I have seen in the US or Europe), but they are mostly against Romanians, Moroccans and South Americans. Asians and blacks are well regarded here as hard workers and peaceful people.
- USA and UK press are as ignorant as it gets, thinking this is racism when even the Chinese have said they see nothing wrong about it. Maybe if they stopped being so self centered they would find this as nothing more than a stupid and light hearted joke, instead of trying to expand their racism problems to the rest of the world.
And last of all, I would like to ask… what’s wrong about slanted eyes? Why would people interpret that as an offensive sign? It seems to me the racists are the press that somehow see slanted eyes as something negative.
What if this was the Chinese basketball team posing as if they didn’t have slanted eyes? Would that be racist too?
PS: someone explain to me… do people in the US and UK use this as a racist gesture? Maybe it’s not us (and yes, as Korean as I am I’m a proud Spanish too and feel offended by this) who are the racists, maybe it’s you.
And KK, you are as ignorant as it gets. If you knew anything about Spanish history, you’d know the moors never mixed with the locals, and the actual ratio of people with “moor blood” in Spain is estimated to be below 7%. Same with that thing about being descendants of black people.
Most of the Spaniards are descendants of the Visigoths or the Celts (Celtiberians). Neither the Romans nor the Moors mixed with the Iberian population while they were in the Iberian peninsula.
The picture and their comments after being criticized show they’re just a bunch of ignorant jocks. The reason China hasn’t come out and said anything is because these guys are litle more than flys on the Chinese ass and China is more concerned about putting on a spectacular Olympics than dealing with a team of morons. I suggest this is the best response. Don’t be shocked by this type of crap — it’s endemic, its normal, and many, many white people don’t get it and don’t care that they don’t get it. What can be done about it? Not much. Boycott travel to Spain if you want but were you going there in the first place? Demand that the Lakers and the Raptors condemn both Gasol and Calderon, perhaps fine and suspend them for offending us? Maybe. Meanwhile, live your life, do the things that are important to you, and don’t let these racist jocks– and their idiot countrymen who are stupid enough to try and defend them — divert you from pursuing what you want.
Wait, did I miss something here? There’s a bunch of spanish folks who decided to blog on this site to say they don’t see anything offensive or racist about the “slanted eyes” picture?
Come to neighborhood on the lower east side in NYC and pretend to slant your eyes. I dare you.
And you’re right, there’s nothing wrong with my slant eyes, just like there’s nothing wrong with me telling the spanish people to learn english, get off welfare, stop having 10 children and get a job. Let’s not be too proud.
For those who seem “confused” on where the offense lay…
Let’s place the Olympics in South Africa and have the
Spanish team(s) paint their faces black with big smiles
on their faces. But “we didn’t mean for it to be offensive”…WISE UP
“Come to neighborhood on the lower east side in NYC and pretend to slant your eyes. I dare you. ”
That picture was taken on Spain, so if you want to analyze it you must understand that different cultures can have different interpretations to the same gesture.
I’m really sorry if at USA or UK it’s an offensive gesture, and I apologize if someone is offended.
But that photo wasn’t taken at USA or UK and also the participants weren’t USA or UK citizens.
It isn’t hard to understand.
“stop having 10 children”
In Spain we have 1,37 children per fertile woman. About 7 times less than 10 ;-)
Tom Sato,
Great example.
Did you know in the Cape Town carnival (South Africa) people paint their faces black?
http://www.henrytrotter.com/scholarship/images/coons-4.jpg
A blackface doesn’t have the same connotations in the entire world.
It isn’t hard to understand.
maria and all those who think that accusations of racism about this gesture is based on some assumption that ’slanted eyes’ are inferior: perhaps you are not acquainted with the concept of stereotypes and how they are used to perpetuate racism. If you’ve ever been in a room with more than, say 20 Asian people who are not related to each other, you would see that their eyes are not all slanted. Some are round, some have epicanthal folds, some are narrow, some are deep-set, etc. Asians in China are not a homogenous race, despite the Western preference to see them as such. Read a little about China’s expansionist history and you’ll see how impossible that would be. China is comprised of hundreds of minorities who have grown to share a common language. Have you ever seen a Mongolian next to a Hakka? Probably not or you wouldn’t think the ’slant eyes’ gesture signifies anything positive about the Chinese.
People offended by these photos are not necessarily people who think the eyes of Asian people are less beautiful or desirable than the eyes of other races. They are offended that a bunch of supposedly grown men from a supposedly civilized nation would act as if the billion plus population of the host nation ALL LOOK THE SAME. Which is the basic premise of racism.
Folks:
Well, at least more than a few of “us,” “slant-eyes” that is, are speaking up.
With luck, some among “others” may even pay attention.
And, bottom line: as with all racist cant and slurs and jeers and taunts, the harm and hurt lie in the venomous intent, which is obvious even to a child, as one poster notes, and which can hardly escape the perceptions of the perpetrator.
For the rest, the heat and the chauvinisms, on both sides, reveal the need for mutual “education” and SOME degree of the despised PC, wherein lie the hopes of, at the very least, “civil” actions and reactions between ALL peoples.
Frank Eng
P.S.: Maria, if some 7% of the Iberian peninsula are of mixed Moorish/North African? blood, doesn’t that add up to more than three millions? Neat trick, sans “mixing.”
And, Joan, yours is one constructive post, thanks. Now, can we all get back to “friendly” bashings in competition and maybe another round or two on “lip-synchings” and child gymnasts? Forget the separatist bombings, and no one seems to have blogged the smog OR demolition of hutongs.
“Probably not or you wouldn’t think the ’slant eyes’ gesture signifies anything positive about the Chinese. ”
Please, could you quantify how many Chinese inhabitants have or could consider it offending?
I love stats.
“act as if the billion plus population of the host nation ALL LOOK THE SAME”
As this premise is false, if people are offended because of the reason you point out, they shouldn’t be.
If you do a kind joke about any collective (considering any characteristic: skin color, nationality, weight, political views, religion, studies, accent, quantity of hair in the head, thumb length, traditions, diet, believe in unicorns, etc.) it’s so obvious that you aren’t trying to say all of them all equal.
“donpinpon”?
Sorry, but, to me, you sound like nothing less than a weird melding of aarthurwu/AsianPreiident/Mr.Obvious et al.
What are you saying? Much less iotending.
A jeer and a taunt are just that, issuing from bullies, usually ignorant as well as fearful.
Marc: Come to any place full of Asians in Spain and do that gesture. Trust me, nobody would be offended.
Also, nice one acting offended by this “racism” while saying stupid things about Spain that are not even close to being an stereotype. Birth rate is lower in Spain than in the US, but I suppose you are just another American that confuses Spain with Mexico.
Tom Sato: Again, painting faces in black is not racism everywhere. Nobody would be offended here if someone painted his face in black to represent a black person (and, in fact, it’s done countless times in Christmas celebrations and “Moors and Christians” celebrations).
As I said, it seems as in some countries being not racist means acting as if there are no differences between races. Fortunately it’s not like that in Spain.
joan: do you think there would be any problem if this was the other way around and Chinese were posing as if they didn’t have slanted eyes? Obviously not, that tells you something.
Frank Eng: I said less than 7% have Moorish ascendants, so talking about Moorish Spain is just ignorance.
Seriously, I’m Asian/Spanish and I’m not even slightly offended about it. Chinese and the Chinese embassy have said they were not offended by it (when the federation issued a formal apology), but apparently Americans are so insecure about their racism problems that need to make a fuss out of this with their oversensitive political correctness. I wonder what will be the next episode of this stupidity… another nipple scandal?
Donpimpon, as to your statistics question, please share with us the answer of how many are NOT offended. Take your time and don’t forget to count the overseas Chinese. Besides, even if all the people of China and the Asian people in Spain weren’t offended (which isn’t true according to news reports), does that obviate the right of persons of Asian descent to take offence at what has, in the western context, been a taunting gesture aimed not at one nation but an entire race? I reserve my right to be just as offended if a Spaniard did that to a Korean-American, a Chinese-West Indian, or one of Spain’s former Philipino subjugants (I might be extra mad in that case, given Spain’s 300 years of colonial activity there).
Jokes about people’s physical characteristics can be perfectly funny if they aren’t drawing from a well-established repertoire of racial denigration. As many have pointed out, black-face, once a mainstay of minstrelsy and vaudeville and early American cinema, draws from a stinging racially oppressive social context in which lynching was also a popular entertainment amongst the racially dominant group.
I don’t pretend to compare the ’slant eyes’ gesture to the bloody history of blackface, but they are same strange fruit swinging from the same tree.
maria, Maybe my english isn’t good enough or I’m just not as smart as you, but I missed what was obvious about your hypothetical. If the Chinese Olympic teams had taken photos of themselves making racially suggestive gestures of caucasians or blacks and disseminated such photos in their media, people would attibute it to millenia of the Chinese believing they are the center of the universe. Much the way caucasians are on their home turf. It would be considered small, childish, and, yes, even racist, to make fun of visitors with a stereotyped gestures depicting their faces or bodies. White westerners, who have rarely been oppressed or colonized, might not be quick to catch on to it, but they when they did they would charge that there is a double standard since racism against white people isn’t considered an outrage.
People use “make fun of”, “mock”, “taunting gesture”, “unkind joke”, etc. when talk about that gesture. It seems to be a universal truth for some people. The problem is it isn’t.
Again, I’m really sorry if someone is offended by that gesture and I apologize. But we should try to avoid ethnocentrism, fallacies, subjectivity, etc. to achieve a better discussion.
Frank Eng,
I didn’t understand “aarthurwu”, “AsianPreiident” and “iotending”. English isn’t my mother tongue, sorry.
About what I understood, I strongly disagree.
If you want to refute something I wrote, do it. Also if something I wrote is incompressible I can try to rewrite it and put more effort on it.
Joan,
“please share with us the answer of how many are NOT offended”
That’s a “Shifting the burden of proof” fallacy.
You made an assertion therefore you should prove it. Before that I can try to refute it, but it’s necessary you prove it first.
“does that obviate the right of persons of Asian descent to take offence at what has, in the western context, been a taunting gesture aimed not at one nation but an entire race?”
Of course they can take offense, but it isn’t rational in my opinion.
Probably the problem is you consider it a “taunting gesture” itself.
Gestures can have differents meanings for differents countries or cultures. So a gesture doesn’t means the same for all the people.
Also a gesture (even a blackface) doesn’t means nothing itself. Cultures give to the gestures their meanings.
So it isn’t a “taunting gesture” itself. It’s a “taunting gesture” for some people, for some it doesn’t means nothing, and for some it’s kind.
“If the Chinese Olympic teams had taken photos of themselves making racially suggestive gestures of caucasians or blacks and disseminated such photos in their media, people would attibute it to millenia of the Chinese believing they are the center of the universe.”
I can’t imagine myself doing that interpretation. That should be prejudicing, isn’t it?
While the original intent might not be racism, but the gesture of pulling eye back by these players are OFFENSIVE to Asians who have been living in the west like the USA.
In USA, such gesture is used to make fun of Asians. Ugly stereotypes of Asians in America is a common practice. It is seen in American Hollywood movies and in the media. Basically, they try to make you feel “inferior” because you are not white. This is why many Asian Americans are highly OFFENDED by this gesture. The intention, when used in America, is to degrade Asians like we are all the same etc.
As representatives of their countries, Spanish players should at least be sensitive to that. It is like if we call people from Spain “spic” or something. People in Spain might be be offended but any Hispanics in America will be. Since Olympic is an international event, countries should at least try to be sensitive to each other to promote harmony.
donpinpon,
I said the “SPANISH TEAM(S) paint their faces black” not South Africans at Carnival. It also doesn’t sound like there are many white participants (painting their faces black) and you need not go to South Africa to find this at Carnival (read the caption too):
http://picasaweb.google.com/paul.kerlin/MardiGras/photo#5165184434270276306
In the blog accompanying that photo the author says he’s “the festival’s only white participant” and goes on further to say “wearing blackface might be seen back home (he’s an American) as a provocative act. I think it would be challenging to explain this to Americans, because we have abandoned these thing.”
Now give me the historical context for the Spanish Olympic teams slanting their eyes…
Tom Sato,
As far as I know “the only white” participant was not accused of racism in South Africa.
Why assume it would be considered offensive outside the Carnivals?
Should I be offended if someone paints his face with the same color than mine if he doesn’t try to offend, mock up, etc.? I don’t see why.
The historical context for the Spanish Olympic teams slating their eyes is… there isn’t historical context.
Nowadays it isn’t used with that connotation. Neither in the past.
The same thing happens with a blackface. In Spanish carnivals there is not problem about that. You can dress up as you want (doesn’t care your skin color) and even if it isn’t carnival time.
That’s the situation nowadays. I don’t know what happen in the future. Perhaps in the next years those gestures are used by Spaniards racists to mock up. If it happens I would condemn those gestures but obviously I hope it never happen.
By the way, I’m not trying to say in Spain there is not racism at all. There is racism and we must fight against that. But the racism in Spain is not related with those gestures.
Frank Eng,
I realized that some of the words I didn’t understand where nicknames, sorry.
Frank Eng,
Racism was/is so institutionalized in South Africa (as in many countries) that the victims parodied it during festivals…but it origins are from bitterness. But if you want to “innocently” dress up in black face (as a social experiment) and try this in South Africa or South Central anytime of the year….I welcome your results.
“But the racism in Spain is not related with those gestures” It is related…when you think less of ethnic
groups in your own country (Catalans & Basques) why
bother with the sensitivities of the Chinese or the PC Americans…
We all share this planet and share an ignorance of each other so its only right to accept apologies and move on.
What bothered me was reading that 88% of Spainards (or those that read El Pais)…after knowing the ad was offensive….felt an apology was unecessary.
http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/what-the-world-is-saying-the-reaction-in-spain/
Good point, Tom Sato. Once you know that you’ve offended someone, albeit unintentionally, isn’t an apology (rather than apologetics) the decent thing to do?
The photos definitively are not funny for me. I find them very offensive. It might be one thing if one team on the spirit of the moment thought it would be funny to do a slanted eyes photo but several teams repeated doing the same derogatory photos? No, I don’t think so.
I think many non-Asians around the world, especially with the Olympics times now, realizing how incredible China and Asians have taken a lead on many facets of international affairs feel threatened. Just read the NY Times article on the women gymnastics team competition and one can see the sore loser syndrome. U.S. lost because the team made gross errors in their performance. Sure, there is validity on the speculation of the ages of some of the China’s gymnasts, however, to speculate on someone’s ages just because of a missing tooth is ridiculous. Frankly for me, Shawn Johnson looks a little young for 16 so what I am saying is that to judge one’s age by the looks is misleading, not to mention a lot of Asians do look younger then their true age.
I am not saying that it’s ok to cheat but to keep emphasizing it and making it seem to be the main reason of losing a competition for the US is just plain looking for excuses for one’s falter. It also leads animosity and aggression between the groups.
Was their intention to be racist or was this just ignorance? I don’t know but I can tell those who claim that the Spainish are harmless is a bunch of bull. There have been publicized racist incidents by Spanish soccer players and their fans before to other nations. Within the last year there was a racist incident in Spain where a Chinese girl was suddenly violently attacked by several Spanish girls that she didn’t even know. And lets stop this ignorant notion that Europeans are socially advanced. When it comes to sports, they are pretty primitive minded. It was a during a soccer match between a German team and one from Africa where the German fans started throwing bananas onto the field to taunt the African team.
I was wondering…
In GuangXi, it’s quite usual to call foreigners “Hello” (pronounced “Halo” in Chinese).
What do you think about it?
Isn’t that the same kind of action, calling “non Chinese people” by a word that exists only in English?
Being French, should I find this offensive that my nationality is not to be taken in consideration and assimilated as American because I’m not Chinese (obviously in people’s mind because I don’t even have slanted eyes)?
I can tell you it sometimes get me a bit upset, but hell… People were kind to me, at least because they try to do something that they think could please me.
Even if it does not…
For those angered by the picture, were you also outraged by this? Did you know about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5DMc2TfahA
This came much before the infamous picture. Now, why didn’t the media in English make a fuss about it? Why didn’t you protest then?
As regards the photo of the Spanish team, the gesture has no diminishing connotations in Spain. China and Spain have a history free of conflict. I know, the Philippines, I know. I know, Spain has done terrible things in the past, I know (I don’t know of any nation or race that hasn’t, but that seems irrelevant by now). But Spain and China have a stress-free history. The ‘oriental eyes’ (as we call them in Spain) are considered beautiful: not ugly, not funny –beautiful.
Chinese people from and in China have all the right to feel offended by the picture. Then, the Spanish team should 1) apologize; and 2) explain what I just stated about the meaning of the gesture in Spain.
But what really bothers me about all this is that
1) it hasn’t been the Chinese people from and in China the ones who have been airing their offence, but some people of Asian descent who live in Anglo-saxon countries -not in Spain- and some anglo-saxon media that have been vicariously offended –the same media that seemed to consider perfectly ok and funny the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5DMc2TfahA
2) the global outcry provoked by the media has unleashed an enormous amount of comments, full of repressed hate against the Spaniards. Again, why? What is worse in any case, the picture or the statement “the Spaniards are a bunch of racist, intolerant pigs” that can be read above, apparently to help create “a healthy platform for multicultural discourse”?
The cocktail of hypersensitive political correctness
in some societies and the postcolonial culture of constant complaints or even retaliation for historical grievances seems to me pretty dangerous. Let’s hope it remains contained.
I am a Chinese but have lived in UK and Europe most of my life. I have good friends of every creed but have also suffered many a racial taunt from just about every other race and nationality. In this day and age, anyone who says that the pictures were innocent and that these idiots didn’t know precisely what they were doing, has got his head stuck up his arse. From my own personal experience, the Spaniard are just as racist as the French, the Germans, the Brits and the Italians.
For folks who have read every comment, you will notice an increasingly hostile environment.
As the authors noted, this space is for a HEALTHY conversation about multicultural issues, including those in and outside of your own country.
Folks, it is imperative for you to understand that YES in the US, it is very very offensive - because, like RY said, that gesture was intended historically to offend and belittle a group of people. It has also been used to represent Asians and Asian Americans in US as a homogeneous group. So, speaking as an Asian American, I was greatly offended at the insensitively. However, the more important ground here is that it IS a teachable moment.
If we are saying that it has to do with the culture you group up or what your parents do/say around you, then right now, screaming that the Spanish are racist or the French are racist or that the US is too insensitive to race issues is NOT conducive to creating an atmosphere that is celebratory of multiculturalism.
I think it is important to understand, before making such angry and emotional comments, that each culture interprets things differently. It is unfortunate that the Spanish do not see these gestures the same as many Asian Americans, especially having a player who plays in the US - but the point is, this IS a teachable moment - if not for the Spanish, then at least for your own children or community: this is a situation in which differing opinions and interpretations have clashed, so how do we rectify this?
Moreover, wouldn’t it have been just as effective to “honor” the Chinese by wearing their national colors or learning their language or national anthem - something more reflective of their culture than of something in the genetics?
This is a response to Maria: Seems like you are a bit confused… I don’t know how old you are, what your social status is, or what your marital status is, but when you say you are Spanish, it doesn’t make any sense since you are not Spanish. You are a descendent of Korean parents, which makes you Korean. Your citizenship doesn’t make you Spanish just as a Spaniard born in Korea would never make him/her Korean. That’s how the world is. Perhaps you live a very sheltered life with not much interaction with the outside world… Now America is a different situation. The country is made up of immigrants. Everyone came from somewhere be it Europe, Asia, or elsewhere. I’ve met many a Europeans and everytime I mentioned someone like yourself, born and raised in Europe, as German, Spanish, etc. they scoff and say that person is not really a German, or Spanish. Not all European countries share the same idea but countries like Spain, Germany, Italy, Russia, or Hungary do. America has its share of racism and so does the UK, but at least they are dealing with it and trying to improve the situation. I have been to Europe, both Western and Eastern and over there, racism can be felt in the bones while in America, it can be noticed. The slant eye gesture is a very condescending mockery frequently done by non Asians all over the world. You need to catch up on world history a bit. Now the Asians used to openly make fun of Europeans’ physical features, mainly the elongated nose, hairiness, body odor, and hygiene. Look at some of the portraits from 18th and 19th centuries from Japan, China, Korea, etc. The derogatory word in Korean for white people is “Ko Jeng I” which means Big Nosed. If you hold a gun and point it at people, they are going to stop making fun of you, which is why the mockery of the Europeans has stopped in Asia for the most part. Now, if a Korean baseball team goes to Spain and they take a picture before they go to celebrate the event by putting on elongated noses with hugh nostrils, put hair all over their bodies in exaggeration, and pose as if they are smelling their arm pits, I think the Spanish will eventually catch on to what’s going on and be upset. Probably, the Spanish living outside of Spain will be more upset than Spanish living in Spain just as Asians living outside of Asia are semmingly more upset than Asians living in Asia. In many parts of the world, everything Spanish is considered primitive and underdeveloped. As far as you constantly defending Spain, including its history, I would like to inform you as a linguist that even the Spanish language contains numerous borrowings from Arabic from the time of the Moors and Moors were not black but Arabic. Arabic influence in Spanish music is even clearer. For you to say less than 7% already shows that the Spanish are over sensitive about their racial make up… who counts how many percent of what and what? Oh I know! German Nazis, and Russian Skinheads. Another lesson from history. The Jews had lived in Spain for generations (much longer than Koreans in Spain) and still at the end of the day, they were not considered Spanish and expelled or killed. There’s Spain for you. All in all, it’s ok for you to not be offended by what the Spanish did in the photos, but please don’t undermine what millions of Asians have gone through living outside of Asia. Having experienced it myself in Europe, America, Africa, and the Middle East, I assure you that it is very hurtful. Please respect that.
Dear “educator”:
AMEN to all that.
And I had forgotten that Moor was Arabic more than “African,” and that iconized “Spanish” gems like the Alhambra? are quintessentially Moorish?
It also occurs to me that our “Maria” here seems far too eager to be admitted into the circles of her Spanish peers, just as, it seems to me, awarthur and his ilk appear to be overeager to suck up to the likes of a “warrior” who bombed his own native land with nary a geopolitical leg on which to base his assault.
Oh, well, some of us are ever grateful to be admitted, with or without honor.
Frank Eng
P.S.: And even as Asians who fear blacks may join the GOPropagandists, note the irony of “Indian” Republicans who are also defecting to Obama because the McCain/Bush axis is over-the-top for THEM. This from today’s New America Media second-lead piece.
That should even the “playing field” a mite, unless the “Clintonistas” make nasty tomorrow in Denver.
Joan says: “People offended by these photos are not necessarily people who think the eyes of Asian people are less beautiful or desirable than the eyes of other races. They are offended that a bunch of supposedly grown men from a supposedly civilized nation would act as if the billion plus population of the host nation ALL LOOK THE SAME. Which is the basic premise of racism”
OK, I understand your point . Then, what about calling ALL WHITE WESTERNERS ‘Caucasians’?
Non Caucasian Spaniard: All white westerners are not all called Caucasians. In Russia, Central Asians, who look closer to Middle Easterner or East Asians are called Caucasians. In the US, Spanish are not called Caucasian nor are they considered to be Caucasian.
Dear Educator:
I’m a Spaniard. I’ve been living in the US for ten years and I’m married to a US citizen. Systematically I’ve had to check the ‘Caucasian’ (sometimes ‘White’) box in almost every official form I’ve filled regarding my ‘ethnicity’ (immigration forms, medical records, employment documents, etc.). Joan’s post reflects this reality. People from Latin-American countries or Latin-American descent are classified under Hispanic or Latino (very rarely under Native-American). Not that this bothers me at all. On the contrary, I find it quite amusing. I’m from Spain, but not Hispanic, like Russell Crowe, whose character in _Gladiator_ was anachronistically called the ‘Spaniard’ (Spain wouldn’t be a nation until some 1,500 years later). Fun! In employment forms, sometimes they change the language and I can check the hispanic box –that way the employer seems very committed to promote diversity. And you can have a black Brazilian and an Argentinian of German descent both under Hispanic. Italians are not Latinos, curiously enough. Again, very amusing.
By the way, the so-called ‘Moors’ (Muslims is more PC) were not Arabic for the most part. They certainly spoke different varieties of Arabic, but they mainly came from northern African areas (roughly, today’s Morocco, Algeria, Mauritania…).
Pepe, Sergio, Aristontoles, and all other Spaniards or others who can’t understand why the Spanish Athletes’ actions in the photos are viewed as racist or offensive:
First of all, where do you get the nerve to say that no Chinese are offended by this as you guys don’t know since you haven’t talked to 1.3 billion people in China and more outside of it? How the Chinese government chooses to deal with the issue is all politics and does not reflect the sentiment of the Chinese people. I teach in the United States and I have many Chinese and other Asian students in my classes, and I assure you that all of them are quite upset and offended.
Second, if so many people have obviously been offended by the photos, who are you guys to say that it’s not offensive? If you cared about the people who have been hurt or offended, you would not say such things.
Third, I keep reading statements that say that this type of behavior is perfectly ok in Spain. If punching someone in the face is a gesture of affection in the United States, then is it ok to do it to a Spaniard and say “what’s wrong guys?” If Spain is going to be part of the global world, then you need to come out of your pond and learn some global manners. You sound like a little kid who says “In my house it’s ok” after offending someone. Just in case you still don’t get it, in certain Arabic cultures, it is perfectly ok to be late when meeting someone as they are not too concerned with punctuality. However, they are not going to do it during an international business meeting because they don’t want to offend others who do not have the same culture. If they are late and others are offended, they are going to say “I’m sorry for being late” not “I’m sorry if you are offended.”
Fourth, look at the pictures again and tell me whether the athletes look beautiful with their gestures or not. An Asian with natural asian eyes don’t look like that. The Athletes in the photos look like retards. In Japan, they have a comedy show in which the Japanese put on big noses and pretend to be White foreigners in Japan. The shows has been criticized by many Whites and Yes the they were hurt and offended. You would be surprised how hurt white people get when they become the minority among Asian majority and their differences are just mentioned or made fun of. When one white guy goes to an Asian restaurant and he is the only one who gets a fork while all his Asian friends get chopsticks, he is hurt and offended. I have seen it many times. It is true that there are not that many Spaniards in the United States, but I’ve known a few and YES they were hurt when stereotyped, mimicked, or made fun of. Don’t talk like you guys are always good sports who never get hurt or offended by the actions of others who are different from you. Just ask the Portuguese in Hawaii how they feel when other Asians make fun of them for being different. Yes there is racism in all parts of the world, not just Europe or America.
All in all, it is my deepest desire that the Spanish grow up and just say “Look, we’ve made a big mistake and we’ve offended a whole lot of people all over the world. We are sincerely sorry and please forgive us for our ignorance” At this point, I am very disappointed in Spain and the way that Spanish people tend to think. I guess I had expected too much maturity from them…
By the way, there is racism in America, UK, Germany, Japan, etc etc. The difference is that the Spanish national team representing Spain did this stupid thing and you guys are either supporting it or defending it.
Also, I’ve had a Spanish student in my class and she was a great student with admirable personality. I would hate to think that she shares the same views as you guys do. I also have a French student in my class and he was basically embarrased for Europe as Spain is part of the European Union. I guess it’s not just the Brits, who you claim are conspiring against Spain, that don’t agree with the actions of the Spaniards.
Hi Non Caucasian Spaniard: Have ever had to fill out a form where it says “White Hispanic” or “Non White Hispanic”? I’ve seen it before and I thought it was interesting. “Hispanic” in America refers to any ethnic group from Latin derived languages in North, Central, and South America. When I said that the Spanish are not considered to be “Caucasian” is to bring into the conversation that there is a sentiment among Anglo-Saxon Europeans and Americans that other Europeans are inferior to them, including Southern Europeans and Eastern Europeans. This sentiment is also true among Jews of Western European origins and Eastern/Southern European origins, which I find quite interesting.
Could you tell me whether the term “Moors” is offensive to Muslims? My muslim friends have never said anything. I know that the word has its origin from the Greek word “Mauros” meaning “dark” or “black” but I don’t know if it is offensive or not. Also, I know the word was used to refer to North Africans before Islam was established as a religion so I want to know the effect of using that word. When you study history, the word is used unanimously by scholars to refer to North Africans who invaded Spain.
Many Arabs live in North Africa including Egypt. 99% of Morocans are Arab-Berber. The major ethnic group in Algeria is also Arab-Berber. Defining who actually is an Arab can be difficult due to their history of nomadism. The point I was making was that the Spanish mingled quite a bit with the people and language/culture of North Africa because Maria was saying something else. I personally think it was great that the Spanish mixed with Africans, but I guess Maria got defensive because someone wrote that the Moors were black. So what? What is so bad about Spanish having black, white, asian, or any other mix in their genes?
Educator:
Yes, I’ve seen the white/non-white Hispanic box, which I find very curious and a potential source of further confusion.
As for the term ‘Moors’, I’m not sure if Muslims would find it offensive, but I don’t think so. The Spanish ‘moro’ tends to be avoided in Spain, due to despective connotations attached to the term throughout the centuries. Nothing to do with its etymology/the reference to the color black, though. In recent scholarship in English I see a tendency to use ‘Muslim’ or ‘Islamic’ instead of ‘Moorish’.
Regarding your comments on some Spanish posters and being also Spaniard, I hope that we all can learn something from this unfortunate episode. At this point my position is:
1. It’s clear that people of Asian descent felt offended by the picture. They deserve an apology and an explanation. I’m pretty sure that at least the Spanish players in the NBA will further apologize. I also hope so.
2. Regarding the explanation, it also seems clear that the intention of the Spanish teams was not to offend. Maybe due to the very limited historical contact between Spain and China and other East Asian nationalities (the Philippines is the exception), there hasn’t been much racial contact or conflict. Parts of Maria’s posts are interesting in this respect.
3. In the whole episode, there’s been more than the intention of those who made the gesture and the reaction of people of Asian descent offended by it. The criticism came first not from the Chinese people in China or Spain or from people of Asian descent elsewhere, but from the British press (The Guardian and The Daily Telegraph curiously united in this) and later by some US media outlets (LA Times, New York Times, New York Post). These newspapers not only reported on the picture and launched it globally, they commented on it and, by extension, on the racial insensitivity, racism and insignificance of a whole nation. For a Spaniard, it is hard to take an ethical lesson on racism coming from a British newspaper, for instance, since the UK has currently a colony in Spain (Gibraltar). Obviously, the also has an impressive and very recent history of colonial imperialism in Asia and elsewhere. The US history of agression against different Asian countries and peoples is too well known to mention. I believe the comments of the Spanish posters in this and other forums are to be seen in this context. They are mainly a reaction against this third party intervention, maybe a refusal to apologize to British and US journalists. I do not believe that they are a negative to apologize to people rightly offended by the picture. At least, I’m a Spaniard and do apologize to all participants in this forum who felt offended.
And with this I’ll say bye for now.
Non Caucasian Spaniard:
I apprecaite your responses and respect you for your apology, which seems quite sincere. However, I don’t think it was necessary for you to apologize since you are not the one who made the gestures and took the pictures. I think what the general Asian public wants is your type of apology from the individuals or the teams that did what they did.
Also, your explanation of the UK and the US’s third party involvement and the Spanish sentiment towards that makes things clearer. And Yes I do agree that they are in no position to give lecutures on ethics to Spain.
Having said that, I ask that you please read the following carefully and consider my point. I still disagree with the fact that you still maintain that doing the slant eye gesture is not offensive or racist in Spain. Sure the Chinese embassy said it was not offensive and individuals like Maria say the same thing, but I want you to consider this. Asians in general are taught to “let go” of a lot of things done to them due to their parents’ teachings which tend to want things to be quiet and not cause any big fuss and general Asian philosophy about keeping harmony with the rest of the world around you. If an Asian kid gets into a fight over the slant eye gesture, many Asian parents are not going to tell them that he did a good thing for standing up for himself, but rather say that their kid should have just let it go. Also, living in Europe, many Asians feel that they are foreigners living in a foreign land. Thus, they don’t want to rock the boat and show to their host countries that foreigners are stirring trouble for nothing. The Chinese embassy probably didn’t want the attention to deter from the olympics or they were ashamed that Spain could and did insult them. They just wanted to let it go. However, Asians living in the US do have a sense of belonging. We didn’t always have it, but times have changed and progress has been made. Asian immigration to the US is much longer than Asian immigration to Europe. Also, since America is a country made up of immigrants, it is much easier or comfortable to feel that this is your country and home even though you look physically different than the majority. We are more verbal about the wrongs done to us than even twenty years ago, and the government and the people acknowledge that and are trying to be more sensitive. Do people make mistakes in America? Sure they do. Does everyone feel or think that it was offensive? Not always. But when someone or some group has been hurt, we try to make amends. Don’t get me wrong, America is full of its racism. My point is, when Asians in Spain say that they are not offended by the slant eye gesture, they are not being honest. If the Spaniards actually look pleasing aesthetically by doing the slant eye gesture, then yes, I agree that it can be non offensive, but that is not the case. No non Asian can look pleasing to the eyes by doing the slant eye gesture. I personally think that Asian eyes are attractive, but not the coarse imitation of it. Let me ask you this. Is it ok in Spain to do the “Hook Nose” gesture to Jews in Spain, and do Jews in Spain think that that is a sign of admiration or affection? What if the olympic games were held in Israel and the Spanish teams took pictures doing the “Hook Nose” gesture or any other gesture mimicking the Jews? Do you think the Jews would say, “Oh look! They are admiring us!”?
Non Caucasian Spaniard: By the way, I forgot to mention that I think the stereotypical Jewish “Hook Nose” is attractive and nothing is wrong with it. Not always, as I don’t think all Asian eyes or Western eyes are always attractive as there are good looking people in Asia, Europe, Africa, and so on and not so good looking people in all those regions. However, pictures that depict Jews in condescending manner always exaggerate the otherwise attractive Jewish Nose.
Educator:
I wasn’t trying to make a case against the inherently offensive / racist nature of the gesture, in Spain and elsewhere, which has been very convincingly explained by you and other posters. I do believe, though, that the Spanish teams were not intending to offend, since they took the pictures before going to China and, I assume, they didn’t want to face a hostile crowd while playing there. I believe the players ‘didn’t get it’ –and maybe they still don’t. I also think that, if explained to them, they would get it and apologize. Or, at least, like Stan in the _South Park_ episode on the use of the ‘n-word’, they would get why they didn’t/don’t get it. The problem I was trying to point out is that, in the whole episode, the picture was followed by pretty harsh comments on their racism (and, by extension, unfair generalizations on the racism of Spain), made by third-parties (Anglo-Saxon British and American journalists). That made the players and some Spanish posters to close themselves up and play defence.
I agree the slant-eye gesture belongs to a global pool of racially offensive language, as some of the posters have pointed out. That pool however has different connotations in different cultures. The ‘hook nose’ that you mention, for instance, is well-known in Spain –and somewhat ambivalent, I would say, since modern day Spaniards are the result of the past mixture of cultures and races. On the one hand, it was used in anti-Jewish discourse, particularly in the 16th- and 17th-centuries; on the other, many of us cannot deny our Jewish ancestry. So you can find pieces of mockery about the feature in question and, at the same time, popular sayings of praise such as ‘hombre narigudo, pocas veces cornudo’. The slant eye gesture, however, is less known in Spain and doesn’t bring up so many connotations, due to the very limited contact between cultures I was talking above. This, of course, doesn’t mean that the gesture is not inherently offensive or that people shouldn’t be offended by it, as you point out.
As for my apology, had the players made the gesture on an individual basis, I wouldn’t have apologized. But they made it as a group representing my nation.
It is difficult to associate specific countries by physical markers, so stereotypical dressing and activities is more common
If the Olympics where in a Scandinavian country would we interpret a photo of players wearing helmets with horns and blond hair as insulting or as a players posing as honorary Vikings?
If the Olympics where in Ireland would we interpret a photo of players dressed in green and blond hair as an insulting or as a players posing as honorary Irish?
If the Olympics where in Scotland would we interpret a photo of players dressed in kilts and holding wind pipes as insulting or as players posing a honorary Scotch?
If the Olympics where in Germany would we interpret a photo of players wearing lederhosen and Birkenstock sandals as insulting or as players posing as honorary German?
If the Olympics where in India would we interpret a photo of players wearing a turban as insulting or as players posing as honorary Indians?
If the Olympics where in Spain would we interpret a photo of players dressed in bullfighter garb insulting or as players posing as honorary Spaniards?
If the Olympics where in U.S.A would we interpret a photo of players wearing an Uncle Sam hat insulting or as players posing as honorary Americans?
I personally think that the players were exhilarated to be able to go to China and did perceive themselves as honorary Chinese. Having different eyes morphology is not associated with inferiority or superiority in Spain, just an identification marker like hair and eyes color or height. Perhaps this is the reason the players did not perceive anything wrong with their sponsor’s simple but tasteless idea.
Some Questions to all Spaniards and others who went through the Spanish education system from elementary school to high school as I am trying my best to understand that doing the slant eye gesture is not offensive or hurtful to Asians in Spain.
1) Have you ever seen Asian students teased or harrased in schools based on any physical differences that Asians have from Spaniards? Please keep in mind that just because someone doesn’t respond to the teasing does not mean that the action was not hurtful. Just because someone laughs about it doesn’t mean it’s not offensive.
2) How many Asians on the average would you say are in one class in an elementary school, jr high school, or high school or whatever the Spanish education system is?
3) Have you ever teased or mocked an Asian verbally or physically based on his/her physical appearance as a child or as an adult?
4) Do you think it’s ok to mimick someone’s physical characteristics?
5) Do you think Spaniards would be offended if another racial group who didn’t have big noses put on fake big noses and took a picture with some symbol or picture representing Spain? (I’m not talking about dressing like Spaniards or acting like Spaniards. Just pointing out the physical differences of the Spanish or Europeans in exaggeration compared to Asians or any other race.)
6) Do you think that you as an individual will stop doing the slant eye gesture now that you know it hurts or may hurt other people’s feelings?
Finally, Paul Corbero: Your talking apples and oranges with your “IF” questions.
Read my “IF” questions and answer them please.
If the olympics were held in Germany, would we interpret a photo of players dressed in Nazi uniforms wearing Hitler mustaches doing the “Heil Hitler Sign” as insulting or as players posing as honorary Germans?
If the olympics were held in England, would we interpret a photo of players wearing extremely crooked yellow teeth as insulting or as players posing as honorary English?
If the olympics were held in Spain, would we interpret a photo of players wearing overtly big noses with body and facial hair pasted on the players bodies as insulting or as players posing as honorary Spaniards?
Do I have to go on with the Irish, Scandanavians, and so on?
If the Spanish players had put on traditional Chinese clothes while holding traditional Chinese swords “Dadao,” would we have interpreted the photos as insulting or as players posing as honorary Chinese.
As a side note, while I was living and studying in Israel, I experienced their holiday called “PURIM” which was similar to the American “Halloween” in the sense that people wear costumes to celebrate it. I saw one Israeli kid who was wearing a traditional Chinese clothes with a Fu Man Chu painted on his face and his eyes lined with eye liner. The kid looked absolutely adorable, and NO I was not offended. Infact I asked him if I could take a picture with him and I did. That is the difference between honoring one’s culture or physical features and stretching your eyes till you look like a monster/idiot from a horror movie.
To educator -
I agree with you that it is possible to make insulting depictions of others intentionally.
I just do not see the logic of intentionally doing so when they get the honor to compete in the Olympics and get the opportunity of a life time to do so in a great country.
This is happening in a time when China and Spain are working together on issues related to culture, science, technology, commerce, and politics. Your point is especially important now that Spaniards adopted over 2000 Chinese children.
The disturbing part of the photos is that they appear choreographed, like in lockstep. It gives me the impression that the players have been set up, they are not spontaneous at all.
At least they did not pull their tongues while distorting their faces.
Not a long time ago a child got problems at school for wearing a Hitler costume.
I have seen motorcyclists wearing a German helmet with a swastika painted on it.
It could be interpreted that they are honoring Nazis or that are insulting them. I believe that they are just trying to shock the rest of us, or trying to appear tough.
Big noses are a fact of life and practically all great characters in my childhood encyclopedia had big noses. Naturally the depiction of exaggeratedly big noses hints to the intention to elicit laughter.
I do not know if the English players use lots of sugar in their tea, but extremely crooked yellow teeth sounds like very funny to me!
Months ago a British TV program depicted a politician telling another: “We can not do that! Not even the Italians would stoop to that.” It was humor, but it could be interpreted as insulting towards the Italians.
Unfortunately it is common in some European countries to make humorous statements toward people of other countries and of people of other regions of their own country.
I think I am beginning to understand Spain and the way people think there. The slant eye gesture is so prevalent over there that it has become the norm. The Asians in Spain have no other choice but to accept it and smile about it because if you say that you are offended, you become the weird one. At least now, the Spanish know that outside of Spain, people do get offended by such gestures, so it’ll be up to the Spanish to start changing and educating its people. It is my sincere wish that in the future, when a Spanish kid in school sees an Asian kid being picked on because his eyes or any other part of his body looks different, he’ll step in and tell the others “Hey stop it! This is not right!”
Throughout European history and most notably during WWII, in Germany and in many other European nations, it was the norm to mistreat the Jews, which eventually led to killing over 6 million of them. Many critics of Germany often say, “why didn’t anyone do anything about it?” When the Nazis were put on trial for their war crimes, they did not admit that what they had done was wrong. Why should they have admitted guilt? It was perfectly ok to kill a Jew in Germany in those days. Infact, people went to jail for being nice to Jews.
To educator -
I agree on your basic expectation of conduct among people. What you say makes sense.
I can only talk about my own personal experience. I have never seen anybody give the “slant eye gesture” to taunt any other human, Not in Spain, not in Germany, not in USA.
I did not even heart or read about anybody being taunted with it, in all my life.
Only recently in the internet I read for the first time about it.
The same applies about the “Hook Nose” gesture. Perhaps I had a sheltered life.
I am sure that now those gestures will be used by nasty people who want to hurt others, now they got the ammunition!
I hope that when this happens somebody will, as you put it so well, step in and tell the others “Hey stop it! This is not right!”
Educator:
Maybe my answers to your questions will help understand better Spain and reconsider your comparison between Asians in Spain in 2008 and Jews in Germany before and during WWII:
1) No. I had no classmates of Asian descent in school or college (from 1971 to 1990)
2) Currently, O (zero) in most cases. The Asian population in Spain is estimated at around 100,000 people. There are 40-45 million people in Spain. People of Asian descent make 0.2% of the peoples living in Spain. Asian immigration to Spain is both very recent (from the late 1990s on I’d say) and very limited.
3) No. As I said, I had practically no contact with people of Asian descent in my 30 years living in Spain. The same is applicable to the vast majority of Spanish people. In the same way that, I assume, most people in China have never personally met a Spaniard. By no means “the slant eye gesture is so prevalent over there that it has become the norm”. It is very rare.
4) That depends on a variety of factors
a)Is the physical feature considered positive or negative by the people who mimick it?
b)Do the people who mimick the personal feature has or belong to a group that has discriminated against the person/people whose physical feature is mimicked?
c)Is the physical feature mimicked offensive to people other than the ones to whom it was originally addressed?
5) No. I’m positive. Spaniards don’t know that the big nose is a stereotype/perceived physical feature of white westerners? Mediterranean people? Spaniards? And Spaniards wouldn’t be inclined to be offended by gestures made by people from China, since we have never had a conflict with that nation. A different thing would be if the stereotype would come from, let’s say, British people or American people.
6) Yes.
Dear Paul and Non Caucasian Spaniard:
I want to let you know that I appreciate your answers and responses very much. Also, Non Caucasian Spaniards answers to my 6 questions have been very helpful especially answer #5.
I know there have been some hostile responses by some people, but you guys have stayed composed and explained things well. I think the hostile responses come from Asians who’ve had a painful past with the constant taunting of their eyes while growing up in the US or elsewhere. Also, most Americans have never met a Spaniard. I think the image of Spain and its people are often the result of Americans’ interactions with Latin Americans of Spanish and Portuguese descent. Thus, you might be confused by some of their negative comments that don’t reflect Spanish people but negative stereotypes of Latin Americans. Unfortunately, due to ignorance or what not, many Americans don’t distinguish between Spain and Latin America. Also, there is alot of racial tension between Latin Americans and Asians in the US.
I also want to clarify that I do not think that the Asian situation in Spain 2008 is same as that of the Jews in Nazi Germany.
As Paul mentioned, everyone speaks from their own personal experiences, and I think things are clearer when you understand the experiences of others.
I am somewhat familiar with the historical/present conflicts between Britain and Spain, but I’m not too familiar with the conflicts between America and Spain except for the Spanish - American War. Could you inform me a little bit on this?
Some thoughts about gestures.
I remember the movies of Fu Man Chu and I bet that many children looked at a mirror and tried to pull the skin of their faces to look like the inscrutable Fu Man Chu, and probably tried to impress their family.
I assume that if they told other children about Fu Man Chu they demonstrated the looks by using the “slant eye gesture.” The intention was not different than when someone describes a pregnant woman.
Some times people use their hands to help the description. Did anybody ever taunt a pregnant woman using the “pregnant woman gesture” by putting the hands a distant from the stomach?
Some people use their hands to describe a headache by touching their head. Did anybody ever taunt a person with a headache using the “headache gesture” by touching their head?
In the USA man use the “OK gesture” which consists of making a circle with the thaum and the index or the middle finger. This gesture is highly provocative in Germany, probably has the equivalent emotional impact as the “bird gesture” in the USA.
To my knowledge there is no present conflict between America and Spain. Perhaps I should clarify:
No present or past conflict with Canada.
There is no present conflict with countries south of the border of the USA. Naturally some people resent a previous colonial history. I believe that England did a much better job than Spain, but now there is a lot of cooperation. Democracy is growing, but some dictators remain and there is much difference in the living standard between the upper classes and the lower classes making them very susceptible to political manipulation.
It is unfortunate that some North Americans had negative interactions with some Latin Americans of Spanish and Portuguese descent. Some of the same people that did not fit in their countries of origin are the ones that caused problems in USA and recently are causing problems in Spain. Some deal with drugs and commit other crimes.
Some Spaniards have been victims of robberies, brake-ins, and violence by people from certain countries. People are scared, use several locks in their doors and tend to mistrust people from these countries. The majority of people from these countries are decent hard working people that have great potential; a few bad apples spoiled the reputation of the majority. Recently some Rumanians in Spain got a reputation similar to that of the Russian Mafia; it was a surprise to me because I have a very decent friend from that country. People tend to simplify things and extrapolate from the behavior of a minority to a whole country.
I know personally some very fine Mexicans, Cubans, Argentineans, Peruvians, Guatemalans, Porto Ricans and. Brazilians that could fit nicely in any place in the world. Portuguese descendents and Basques have accomplished much in the USA and are indistinguishable from the rest of the population.
Some English newspapers appear to forget that the rivalry between Spain and England is part of the past, they write articles that inflame the emotions of many Spaniards, which cause them to lump an English speaking country like the USA in the same ball park. Perhaps some US newspapers write articles based on English articles, forgetting that the Spanish American war is history.
I know several English nationals and I do not perceive any antagonism again Spain, but a few strategically written articles explain the defensive reactions I see in some of the above comments.
Dear Educator:
I’ve been learning a lot as a result of the outcry produced by the unfortunate pictures, both directly through informative and well-thought posts like yours and indirectly through other more vehement messages from both sides of the aisle. Being a Spaniard who has lived in the US for the last ten years, I could grasp a bit what was under the surface of many of the posts on both sides from the beginning, but now I understand it much better.
As for the relation between Spain and the US, it is conflictive, I believe, only from the perspective of the Spaniards, and could be described as a love-hate relationship.
First, from a general point of view, this has to do with the extraordinary power of the US, whose actions always have a direct and immediate impact everywhere in the world. If they are perceived as good, they raise admiration; if not, they raise criticism. Spaniards follow American politics (now the presidential race, for instance) almost as closely as they follow their domestic politics, since it affects them a lot.
Second, in a more specific way, apart from the 1898 war, the conflict with America comes in part from the fact that the US were friendly to Francisco Franco, the pseudo-fascist dictator of Spain, from the beginning of the 1950s until his death in 1975. Spain suffered a civil war (1936-1939) between the so-called Republicans (because they defended the idea of a Republic as a form of government) and the so-called Nationals (patriotic pro-dictatorial, pro-fascist forces). Unfortunately the national forces won and General Francisco Franco became the dictator of Spain. The nation in turn was totally isolated, especially after the allies’ victory in WWII. Spain was already a poor country and became even poorer (which explains the lack of immigration I talked about in other posts). Franco was a raging anti-communist, though, and the development of the cold war lead the US to reconsider its position regarding Spain. President Eisenhower visited Franco in Madrid, gave an unnecessary speech praising the dictator, and lifted the embargo against Spain. As a result, Spain opened up to the world, entered the UN and started to rebuild economically. As a counterpart, the US demanded to fill Spain with military bases and nuclear weapons, which remained there well into the 1980s, when Spain joined NATO. As an anecdote, a US plane dropped by accident several nukes on the Spanish sea-shore in the 1960s. They didn’t explode and, apparently, no radiation spread –at least that is what the US ambassador in Spain said, while having a picture taken bathing on the beaches of one of the affected areas…
Today, when a Spaniard of a certain age hears the US leaders saying that America has always fought to spread freedom and democracy around the world remembers what happened in the 1950s-1970s in Spain. But, at the same time, s/he also remembers the fact that Spain developed economically thanks to the same support; that, during the transition to democracy, we drafted our modern Constitution (in 1978) having the American one as a model; and that the US is an admirable nation and a source of inspiration in many respects. For sure, now that Spain is a richer country and immigration is flowing, Spaniards will look again to the US as a model.
The love-hate relationship I mentioned above comes from all this –of course, in my opinion, which doesn’t have to be necessarily that of the majority of Spaniards.
Now that I am thinking about it perhaps I have been wrong all along. The articles written by some newspapers have nothing to do with historic conflicts with Spain, or any other country.
It is only the money! Newspapers need to sell their product and are more than happy to encounter conflict or controversy and further it, for profit.
Reporters did not hesitate in the past to interview individuals from oppressive countries that would retaliate against statements from their nationals. The newspapers would publish the interviews even if doing so would harm the interviewees.
There is no doubt that in some cases man has used newspapers as part of covert black operations to destabilize some countries and to divide and conquer, but the bottom line is the main motivator.
It must be very hart to make a living having to continuously find something to write about that would motivate people to purchase newspapers.
Paul,
I can’t believe what you wrote!
How can you bring up Fu Man Chu!
That character itself was created out of racism!
Are you really that ignorant!
What! Pregnant woman!
Come on man! Do you really think that it’s the same thing? Do you?
You don’t know what racism is bro!
I really really hope that not all Spaniards think like you. Do most Spaniards think there’s nothing wrong with Fu Man Chu?
Also, I’m pretty tired of having to explain all these things to you over and over again.
I think the best education for you is to experience racism yourself.
Dear Educator –
I feel sad that you interpreted my mentioning Fu Man Chu as something negative.
Your mention of Fu Man Chu, August 29, is what reminded me of the movie character. Perhaps the character was created by racists, but in my mind it was just another entertaining character.
If this makes me ignorant - so be it!
You mentioned Fu Man Chu …. About the adorable Israeli kid dressed as Fu Man Chu. I did not perceive the Purim celebration as racist or the parents of the child, who dressed him as, as racists.
Many dress as Elvis Presley, who I admire for the wide range of his voice. It could be that there is a hidden motive, perhaps racist, I do not know. I do not see anything wrong with someone dressing as a widely recognizable individual of any race, creed, nationality, or politics. Just people acting in a playful mood.
I am not sure about having experienced racism, perhaps to some subtle hints such as about having a chip on the shoulder, or that some nationals have a short fuse. Many times are not the insulting words that hurt, but the internal assumptions that the individual have that cause them to choose certain words or to generalize.
I have known in the US nationals, and people of national origin from China, Korea, Japan, India, and the Philippines; Mostly professional coworkers, with which I had very good working relations (except for a Japanese woman that caused me many problems.)
I have a friend of Korean origin. I had a Chinese woman as dentist, and share hobbies and other interests with other Asians. Do I consider them any less than nationals, and people of national origin I have known from Europe, or the Americas? Absolutely not! The only reason I emphasize Asians in this comment is because it is the emphasis of most previous comments.
There is another subject that recently crossed my mind. Not everybody that places comments in these forums is who they clamed to be. Some that say they are Chinese, Spaniards, Hispanics, English, or any other nationality or race may not be!
Anyone can easily instigate hostilities between other groups. Divide and conquer!
It is possible that some of what I have just written in this or other comments could be interpreted negatively. Be assured that my intentions are sincerely positive, to clarify and inform the best that I am capable within the limitations imposed by my own ignorance.
Paul,
The “FU MAN CHU” I mentioned concerning the Israeli kid I met during Purim was not the character Fu Man Chu but the “Fu Man Chu moustache”
The effects of the character Fu Man Chu has been extremely negative for Asian men in the way that non Asians perceive Asian men. Exibit A: You think that the kid who watches a Fu Man Chu movie and does the slant eye gesture to impress others is same as someone mimicking a preganant woman, the ok gesture, ect.
You may have Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and other Asian friends and coworkers, but when you compare the slant eye gesture being equal to doing the “ok” sign or preganant woman gesture, that is pouring salt over an open wound. Also, Asians who moved to non Asian countries as adults have not experienced the kind of racism that Asians who were born or who grew up in non Asian countries have experienced. Yes, most adults stop doing the slant eye gesture once they grow up for obvious reasons.
I don’t perceive or interpret what you wrote to be intentionally negative, nor do I think of you as a person in a negative way. However, I do sense that you are trying too hard to “rationalize” the slant eye gesture to be something that is not negative or racist but just a simple gesture. That is what brings forth indignation. In essence, it is very similar to the non apologetic apologies of the Spanish basketball team.
Guys:
One of you, Paul, is descanting parlor politesse, and, Educator, you are addressing a ship passing in the night and wasting your breath.
Besides, it’s “Fu Manchu,” and its author, Sax Rohmer, whom I have admittedly not read but judge purely by the idiot films framed out of his pages, HAD to be a klutz. Well, maybe successful “author” in the bargain.
Actually, Earl Derr Biggers?, the “creator” of “Charlie Chan” ain’t all that much better, and adding condescension and patronization into the mix of racism.
Paul had best lo0k eeeper into his worldly and “tolerant” view of “others,” Asians especially, but I doubt he can ever perceive, much less understand, the sensibilities of “aliens” mocked by “hosts,” although m