LGBT Perspective: After Proposition 8
November 6, 2008
The Path Forward
By the time you read this, California’s Proposition 8, which would define marriage as only between a man and woman, will have been either rejected or passed. Either way, much work needs to be done to heal the fissures rendered by this divisive issue.
If it passed, we will have to work to remove that onerous constitutional amendment. One thing is certain: Denying people in love the right to marry has little future. If it failed, then we need to reach out to those who believe the concept of marriage has been destroyed and teach them that quite the opposite has happened. Making it more inclusive has made marriage much stronger.
For us, most of the convincing must be done among Asian Americans. As a group, their willingness to vote in favor of discrimination has saddened us. State Sen. Leland Yee said recently that he was pained by the divisiveness of the Asian American community and that on issues of humanity and civil rights we should speak as one family.
History’s lessons about the great social upheavals that shaped today’s society give us comfort. After 70 years of agitation by suffragettes, California allowed women to vote in 1911 and the nation followed in 1920. Miscegenation laws had been part of America’s system since colonial times, but in 1948 California banned the prohibition against interracial marriage and the U.S Supreme Court extended that for the whole country in 1967.
History also teaches that the road ahead is long and difficult. A hundred years after they gained the right to vote, women still fight a glass ceiling. It took more than 80 years for the U.S. Supreme Court to change its mind and go from upholding anti-miscegenation laws to finding them unconstitutional, but today mixed couples still invite stares on the streets. In America, social change begins with hard work to establish legal grounding, then even more hard work to change attitudes. But it does happen.
One aspect that makes any debate difficult is the large emotional content people invest in their beliefs. Those who voted for Proposition 8 believe that marriage between only a man and a woman is the foundation of our society. We maintain that marriage is an expression of an even more fundamental societal value, namely love, and that any true expression of that value is inclusive of all love.
At the foundation of our American experiment are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We all have equal protection under the law and there are no qualifiers. History is on our side, and we have an Asian view of time and the patience that comes with that. The process for same-sex marriage will follow the pattern of the other great struggles for equality. It will be implacable and relentless, and when it is over, people will say that the debate should have concluded a long time ago.
Belinda and John Dronkers-Laureta are board members of Asian & Pacific Islander Family Pride (apifamilypride.org).
Comments
19 Responses to “LGBT Perspective: After Proposition 8”
Got something to say?
I’m a 25 year old Asian American who voted yes on Prop 8. To me, Prop 8 has a very narrow focus, which is to define the word marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Like many others who voted for Prop 8, I support gay unions and equal rights for gays. One of the major supporters for Prop 8, which is a church, also stated that they supported equal rights for homosexuals and civil unions. However that isn’t the issue.
To challenge the status quo, voters need to look beyond California. Our state already grants the same rights for gay couples as heterosexual couples. The difference lies in Federal law, so political activists should take it up to that level instead of trying to change things here. By forcing me to change my vocabulary by including unions between two members of the same sex is a violation of my beliefs and the beliefs of many other Asian Americans. Please call it civil unions or domestic partnerships, just not marriage.
MG:
Sorry, but it’s NOT about YOU.
It’s about others.
And THEY have identical claims to “rights.”
As for definitions and vocabularies, yours in this instance strikes at least some others, me included, as both self-righteous AND uncharitable, despite your proclaimed “tolerance” of lesser definitions, like “civil union” and “domestic partnerships.”
Check the stats on just how respectful and honorable are the “men” and the “women” you uphold in the blessed state of “marriage.”
It is a mockery, no?
P.S.: I suggest you buy a paperback copy of Martin Buber’s “I and Thou” and read it, then ponder it, then rethink your thoughts here.
Frank, you’re also absolutely correct that it’s not just about me. In fact, it’s about the right of the majority of Californians who voted yes on 8.
Your argument focuses on civil liberties. I absolutely agree with your principle. However, you fail to understand that gay rights advocates are not fighting the battle that they should be fighting when they oppose Prop 8. The battle they’re looking for is in Washington. Gays and lesbians have made huge progress over the last few decades, especially in California. To further progress, they should direct their efforts outside our state to tackle the real issue.
On your claim that everyone has rights, I agree with you totally. The millions of Californians who voted for the proposition reserve the right to believe that the word marriage means a union between a man and a woman, and a person’s set of beliefs are a part of one’s identity. It’s regrettable that a group of judges wish to forcefully change this identity and take away an individual’s right to have a core set of values that defines each of us. No one is claiming that his or her belief is the ultimate truth. However, whether I disagree with you or you disagree with me, it’s wrong to force me to believe one way or another through arbitrary court rulings.
Finally, I’m not sure what you mean when you ask whether heterosexual marriage is honorable and respectful. I’m assuming you’re talking about the divorce rate. Are you implying that gay couples don’t separate and don’t cheat on each other? Or are you saying that heterosexual marriage is somehow wrong?
One has to ask yourself, “What has the homosexuals done for the Asian American community? What do they plan on doing for the Asian Americans in the future?”
And simply put the answer is, they plan on doing nothing and they don’t give half a rat’s ass about the rights and propositions we want and need. How many homosexuals do you see actively supporting our causes or standing and parading in our protests? So why would I, as an Asian American, care so passionately about their rights?
Besides, why would I waste my time in fighting for or against gay marriage. Gay rights would only divide the Asian American community, between the socially liberally minded and the socially conseratives ones. Gay rights bring nothing but trouble and divide within the Asian American community. Homosexuals are too self absorbed in their own political agendas to care about anybody else. When was the last time a homosexual block vote helped get an Asian American proposition passed?
So don’t try to shame me into supporting the so called LBGT community. Truth be told, it would be more disasterious for the Asian American community to support them than to just to be passive about them.
People seems to bring in a lot of their personal believe and feeling into this proposition. This is a legal issue, all I ask is for you to keep your personal opinion aside, and look at it as a legal issue. Once you done that, you will find that the law has established “Separate is not Equal”. It’s that simple, we should always do the RIGHT thing, no matter it’s at the state, federal or personal level.
Prop 8 is discrimination no matter how you spin it.
Justice is not for bargain, you can not exchange justice with favor. Justice is not majority, just because you have the majority vote doesn’t mean you are right. As an Asian American you all should know that by now.
Even though I voted against Prop. 8 on principle alone, I can’t help to see this as karma. It was correct to ask such a question, “What has the gay community done for Asians?” Nothing really and to suggest that Prop. 8 passed because of Asians is far-fetched simply because Asians are notorious for not voting. So in other words you can blame someone because of apathy? Anyone can play that dangerous slippery-slop game and it is “discriminatory” to select Asians and not the others that made the initiative pass as the sole reason why Prop. 8 passed. Do Asians have the power to blame another group of anything in the coutry and have a public forum to express it? Not many and not as many as the gay community has available to them. People talk as if gays have it worse than Asians. In political power they don’t. How many notable people are vocal about gay rights and concerns? A lot. For Asians we get the trickle down version. Whatever is done for African-Americans in concern trickles down to Asians. Any kind of racism or discrimination directed towards Asians is basically ignored and not of concern. And in the city of San Francisco there is definitely a pecking order because the concerns for the gay community ranks higher in importance than for Asians within the SF liberal elite. You have the racist gay talk-show host Karel, of KGO radio who frequently and publicly expresses his petty dislike for Asians in general and yet liberal San Francisco doesn’t see it as a problem. And he now gets suspended not for his racism but because he makes an nasty comment on-air about Joe, the Plumber. Remember over a decade ago radio personality J. Paul Emerson made ugly comments about Japanese and gays the same day. The Asian American community came out and called for his firing. The gay community came in publicly disassociating their community from the Asian activists in defense of Emerson in the name of free speech. Emerson was fired and he eventually found a job on another station. From the get-go Emerson laid in a homophobic rant on-air at his new job. The gay comminity came out and protested and Emerson was eventually fired from his new job. Where was that support from the gay community? Asians are guilty of being apathetic yet the gay community actively protected a racist towards Asians?
First, nobody has suggested that Prop 8 passed because of Asians. In fact, a slight majority of Asians voted against Prop 8 according to exit polls.
Second, justifying support of homosexuals in response to their perceived support for API issues is simply ludicrous. It is just plain wrong to support writing discrimination into the Constitution–it shouldn’t matter what race you are.
Third, I believe winning the marriage equality battle in CA has alot of relevance to eventually getting rights for same-sex couples at the federal level.
BTW, I am gay and Asian AND I also care about Asian American issues.
“For us, most of the convincing must be done among Asian Americans. As a group, their willingness to vote in favor of discrimination has saddened us.”
Sounds like blaming Asians to me.
As Karel, KGO Radio talk-show host, said, “It’s all right to be a little racist but it’s not all right to be homophobic.” We already know the gay community is no less racist than everyone else and maybe even more so since there seems to be this attitude in the victim culture of the US that allows “official” victims to do the very thing they don’t want to be done to themselves in the guise of protection. Karel is an example who hides behind being a victim while saying the most vile and racist charges towards Asians and others on his show. Anyone else would’ve been fired from their job. But because he uses his show to further gay rights somehow it negates his own racism and discrimination. Of course Karel’s defenders will try to spin it how that’s a different issue. In others words… ignore it. But the same logic can be applied with the attempt to blame Asians for Prop. 8. The arguement can be made for the Asian-American community that it has nothing to do with homophobia and have everything to do with coming from poverty and how family is important in survival in such conditions. And for some Asians that I know who voted for Prop. 8 and who heard Karel’s racists rants, it’s just plain revenge not homophobia. And we know the gay community has never addressed it’s own rampant racism within and towards those outside their community because maybe more than anyone else, they have embraced all they can from the victim culture. And that is the false notion as victims themselves it is impossibe for them to discriminate against others. Therefore they don’t need to address any racism because they believe it doesn’t exist in their community.
The first time I heard Karel on KGO radio, being socially liberal in the most part, I thought it was refreshing to hear another point of view other than what usually is heard on talk radio. Then I heard Karel’s racism towards Asians. I wrote an email to him to address it in a civil manner. Karel replied with only an internet article on penis size by race. I replied back to ask what does that to do with with his negative views towards Asians. Again he replied with a different article about penis size by race. So since he did not address his own racism, I can only conclude that his problem with Asians is that Asian men don’t satisfy his needs which is why he dislikes Asians. So when it comes down to it, Karels doesn’t like Asians for the same reason any skinhead and klansman… Asians serve no purpose in his life. Classy!
Try to divert attention away from addressing the problem of racism in the gay community by to trying to claim it’s a different issue from the one at hand. And in turn the problem of “homophobia” in racial minority communities will never be addressed either. Besides it’s racist to suggest that any minority group(s) are the reason why Prop 8 passed. African-Americans are the 4th largest group in California while Asians are the 3rd and notorious for not voting. So this propaganda in the news about the irony that gays for for Obama while minorities passed Prop 8 is just another lie. It makes you wonder if the anti-Prop 8 supporters are really trying figure this thing out, why are they targeting the people whose votes are ignored because of their insignifcance. You only address Asians when you need ours votes and that after the fact and in a negative way. Why not before? Because again you thought they were insignifcant? Then when our community is on the other side of the issue, they prefer us not to vote at all and even use racist tactics to counter. Just like Hillary did with Obama. On a side, note Karel was worse that the charge of racism by Republicans during their campaign against Obama. Why? Because he was a Hillary supporter and the Republicans used her playbook against Obama.
When does the gay community address their racism? There is the stereotype that racial minorities are homophobic. There’s no stereotype that gays are racist. Doesn’t that tell you who has more support from those in power?
Hi Jammer,
We are all Asian American. We our one large community form by friends and family members. When we refer to 49% of Asian American voting for Prop 8, it is merely a reflection of ourselves, and how we can better our own community. Please do not see it as finger pointing.
Gay Asian American has been contributing to the community for decades. It may be invisible to most people because we don’t wave our rainbow flag in people face. If you look closer, you will find gay and lesbian in almost every organization contributing to Asian American causes. It is simply not true that the LGBT community has done to the Asian American community.
Regardless if the LGBT community has done anything to help Asian American, there is no ground for revenge. Two wrong doesn’t make a right. Every community have some bad apples, and we all are working to address them. But lets not let them stop us from doing the Right thing. And lets not blend another issues into this.
While we are fighting on many front on equality, be it racism or homophobia, let us remember not to do what we don’t want to be done upon us.
This has nothing to do with what the gay community has done for you. This has everything to do with the definition of marriage or limitation of it to include same sex gender in the contract of marriage. That all it is. So do you place a limitation on one group of people who love each other and say no you can’t marry because you have to be a man and a woman? You can’t have what straight people have. You can call it something else, but it will never be legitimate. Call it a civil union, but don’t liquidate the value of straight love. Why would anyone want to puts a limitation on love?
Tell me if you have ever been in a position where you had to tell your son or daughter that you didn’t want them to date or marry that person because they weren’t Asian, smart or wealthy enough. Or tell me if they had to be only Chinese, Korean or Japanese? Or they can’t be White or Black. Well, that is what you are doing right now to gay people who are already in relationships. Gay people who happens to be Asian, who happens to be White, or Black or Latino.
I don’t believe Gay rights are dividing the Asian American community. I find it ironic that it is. That the Asian American community, who has never crusaded in anything political, happens to find this social issue so important!
I am Asian and gay, and Christian if that matters.
Apparently gay rights is important enought to be featured on AsianWeek in an article blaming a majority of Asian Americans as homophobic. Homosexuals can cry a river, this was revenge for all the racist bullshit they put us through.
When Vincent Chin was murdered by two white racists on the streets of Detriot there was no newsflash, no concern, or even an eyebrow raised. When Thien Minh Ly was brutally murdered by a white supremacist there was no big announcement, no rally, no march. There was no special edition on MTV. Instead that was reserved for a gay person who died. Gays are more important than Asian-Americans.
And if your gay and Asian American, then good for you, because you get more media representation than the normal average straight Asian American.
Oops, sorry, once again, into the fray . . .
I am deeply rueful that you have yet to grow into your full maturity of understanding and “tolerance.
Actually, tolerance is not quite enough.
What humanity needs is acceptance AND inclusion, warts and all.
Frank
As I recall, the person that killed Vincent Chin got probation which means no jail time just checking in with a probation officer every couple of weeks. The white person that was convicted stated himself that he thought the sentence was very light. What this tells me is that the justice system in Detroit itself is racist towards Asian people.
Also, white homosexuals at the elite level like Rosie O’ Donnel and Senator Larry Craig are not being discriminated against. Larry Craig is still a senator. Rosie O’ Donnel only lost her job after implying that she believed that the 911 attack was an inside job by elements in the American government not just an unprovoked attack by Muslims. That of course offended the Jews and since Jews are one of the most powerful and privileged racial groups in America especially in Hollywood, she was basically fired.
to Eng:
Maybe if the homosexuals started to practice what they preach then maybe the majority of Asian Americans will consider it.
Homosexuals fight for their verison of fair rights yet they could care less about the rights of others. So don’t cry foul when ethnic minorities don’t stand up for your political agendas. Try to talk a little less morally because unless you have actual morals it just makes you look like an idiot. It helps to make sense once in a while.
Wow…I am surprised, saddened, disheartened, alarmed, on the verge of disgusted.
I am Asian American, Queer, and of mixed race. I also happen to live in California. Prop 8 is hurtful and I will delve into that in a min.
Let’s get one thing off the bat. The oppression Olympics favors no one. When it comes down to it unless you are a straight white upper class Christian male then we are all have been and will continue to be “not helped.” Since when is it conducive for anyone minority group to trash the plight of another?
“Homosexuals don’t give a rats-ass about Asian issues.” Whether you like it or not homosexuals are Asians…and blacks, Latinos, and mixed raced people. They are everyone! To start going off about whether or not there was a public outcry over some heinous hate crime that befell and Asian American is misguided and petty. You can be angry at the fact that Matthew Shepard got press, but the truth remains a hate crime for any reason is disgusting…It is nothing something to rank.
I have been fighting for years to get Filipino veterans their rights that were promised to them after WWII. I am gay…do I give a rats-ass? I have many queer API friends that are active in Asian issues do they give a rats-ass?
The queer community has to deal with its issues of race and sexuality and in time we will. Right now isn’t that time. We have just been told by 52% of Californians that separate, but equal is ok. Now I am young and didn’t live through segregation or the civil rights era, but I would imagine that this is something akin to that. We don’t live in a country where it is ok to tell people that they are less of a citizen, ever! Too many people have fought and died for those rights. Why go backwards?
Moral values and religious beliefs are just semantics and don’t really address the question. Frankly, I don’t care about what people think marriage is. It isn’t about what they think it is…IT is what they think it isn’t that is more important. 60 years ago Japanese men couldn’t marry white women. 100 years Chinese men were not allowed to bring their wives into this country. Was it ok then? I bet you if California, put that into the constitution it wouldn’t matter who was gay straight or sideways. Because it is just wrong…
20-20 hindsight is a beautiful thing, if it is not ignored. The API community has fought for years for things it needs and deserves. Now as we enter this new era of fighting for rights that aren’t defined by what color skin we have will this community do what is right? Let’s hope so…
Robert Wone an inspiring prominent young attorney and president-elect of the Asian Pacific American Bar Association- D.C. was murdered by homosexuals.
http://modelminority.com/article1119.html
Tai,
Geez, thanks for blaming GLBT community by abusing generalization. Since we are down this path, you should know that GLBT is also human, and since you are human too (correct me if I am wrong), you should also be blamed for all the things you are accusing GLBT community for.
Please do not apply your racist view and stereotype to GLBT community or any other group of people. As an Asian, I am shocked and ashamed by your point of view.
“Racist view and sterotype”. And how is not supporting gay marriage racist? I don’t support the gay community because they’ve never supported the Asian community. Until the homosexuals started showing a desent amount of respect towards the Asian American community I will continue to NOT support them and so will the majority of other Asian Americans.
Oops there it is!
The ugliness of internalized racism rears its ugly head!
The sentiments that Nickel expresses,
“The queer community has to deal with its issues of race and sexuality and in time we will. Right now isn’t that time.”
are typical of the sell-outs and self-hatin brown folks that like to hang around the edges of the white queer “community” begging for scraps.
Queer racism is real and the white queers should have learned from the brown and black vote that the time to deal with THEIR ugliness and THEIR hatred is right now!
The white queer leadership should have got the message that a vote against gay marriage, in any state, is a vote against WHITENESS. It was a vote against giving WHITE queers full white privilege in a racist, oppressive society, but their whiteness wouldn’t let them wrap their heads around that radical truth.
Wake up! OVER PRIVILEGED WHITE queers (not queers of color) are pushing this single issue and ignoring issues of race and poverty in America because they are as racist, if not more racist, than the heterosexual white people who spawned them. They don’t represent me or any other queers of color. The rainbow flag is pure white hypocrisy.
White queers are just as bad as the rest of their race. They will live in denial and find reasons to let their ugly racism out. The message was clear for all who chose to listen. Native American folks sick of white queer cultural appropriation of their religions. Black folks sick of being treated like ignorant savages or as sexual commodities. Asian folks sick of being stereotyped or ignored, and Latin folks are sick of having their poverty and their economic misery ignored by pompous, arroagant, racist WHITE queers. Lots of people of color spoke out against whiteness in many more states than California last November.
How did the White queers react? They lost their minds when they realized they are NOT in control of the brown and black re-conquest of this land. Not being able to control bodies of color makes them crazy. So they let their racist ugliness out of the closet and let world see who they really are. Then they tried to cover it all up with the whitest of rhetoric - it’s just a few bad apples etc. White Queers are used to not having to listen to the “other” because they’ve been told since childhood that they know what’s best for us and they don’t have to listen our concerns, but we are fast becoming the majority in this blood soaked land. We will watch and we will wait and we WILL defeat all the white queer’s self-centered racist aspirations of being on the top of us, enjoying all the unearned privileges their race. Deal with your ugliness now! The time is to put an end to white queer racism is NOW!